Air Separator to replace ancient B&G Flo-Control

R2.0

I have a single loop HW system with a *very* old B&G Flo-Control valve - it's a 1 1/2" angle valve with 2 flanges, and I can't even find equipment cutsheets for it. (Anybody have one?)

My new boiler is a Weil McClane CGt, which uses it's diverter valve to prevent system flow when the boiler isn't firing. So the Flo-Control is redundant (assuming it's even operating correctly). But it's location would be a great place to install an air separator. I can only find 2 that can be configured at an angle: B&G EAS or Honeywell-Sparco Supervent.

1) Are there any others that can be configured at an angle?
2) Which do you recommend? The Supervent is cheaper, but it gets serviced through the bottom - obviously a lot harder if that's where the inlet is configured.

Thanks

hot_rod

Got a pic? Are you sure it's a flo valve?

You could also install a vertical air sep and replace the flo valve with an ell maybe?

R2.0

I can get a pic tonight, but it says "Bell & Gossett Flo Control" cast right into the body.

I thought about using a vertical and cutting into the riser. But is there any substantial advantage? One of the benefits of replacing the Flo Control is that, with judicious selection of nipples, I should be able to make the replacement assembly drop in.

Now, if there was a vertical combination dirt/air sep, that would be a different story. I need a dirt separator, but that is definitely a "cut in" affair, as the ideal location isn't really available. So I'm doing what I can now.

R2.0

Here's the valve. There should be data plate on it, but it's not there. It was painted red at one point though.

icesailor

If you take that valve and replace it with an air separator like you describe, the water will flow on gravity and the entire system fill flow around continuously to get rid of heat.

Some of your problems may have more to do with that ancient Watts 1156F Pressure reducing Valve being cast iron and connected to a brass 9D Back Flow Preventer. There is a tag on PRV that gives the model # and also the date of manufacturing. It is probably around the same date as the boiler installation.

You need to post photos of the offending radiator and the piping where it connects to the main. Down-fed radiators can be difficult to make work when connected to zone piping that feeds overhead radiators and also, the down fed one. Once bled of air, there should never be any air in a down fed radiator. Air rises.

R2.0

icesailor said:

If you take that valve and replace it with an air separator like you describe, the water will flow on gravity and the entire system fill flow around continuously to get rid of heat.

The boiler I installed has a 3 way diverter valve that it uses to maintain the low limit for the tankless coil, and Weil McClane changed the configuration mid production so that it blocks gravity circulation. So that big cast iron valve is now redundant.

icesailor said:

Some of your problems may have more to do with that ancient Watts 1156F Pressure reducing Valve being cast iron and connected to a brass 9D Back Flow Preventer. There is a tag on PRV that gives the model # and also the date of manufacturing. It is probably around the same date as the boiler installation.

You need to post photos of the offending radiator and the piping where it connects to the main. Down-fed radiators can be difficult to make work when connected to zone piping that feeds overhead radiators and also, the down fed one. Once bled of air, there should never be any air in a down fed radiator. Air rises.

You got your posts confused. I need radiators in my basement, but don't have any. That's a post for another time.

icesailor

I said that I confused posts.

"" The boiler I installed has a 3 way diverter valve that it uses to maintain the low limit for the tankless coil, and Weil McClane changed the configuration mid production so that it blocks gravity circulation. So that big cast iron valve is now redundant. ""

What is this modification that Weil McLain did to their boilers that made it so you didn't need a flow valve where one existed before?

R2.0

icesailor said:

I said that I confused posts.

"" The boiler I installed has a 3 way diverter valve that it uses to maintain the low limit for the tankless coil, and Weil McClane changed the configuration mid production so that it blocks gravity circulation. So that big cast iron valve is now redundant. ""

What is this modification that Weil McLain did to their boilers that made it so you didn't need a flow valve where one existed before?

The original configuration had a Honeywell 3 way diverting valve before the circulator with one inlet taking the system return and the other taking from the boiler outlet in a "standard" boiler protection configuration. When the low limit aquastat in the tankless coil would call for heat, the valve would activate and the system heating loop would be bypassed, so that all the heat input would go to the domestic demand. When the demand was satisfied, the valve would be de-energized and the heating loop would be active again.

Weil McClane did a mid production change which flipped the diverter valve inlets and added a relay. Now the default state has the valve bypassing the heating loop, and call for heat from the space thermostat energizes the valve and send water through the heating loop. When space demand is satisfied, valve de-energizes and the heating loop is bypassed again. It's a cute trick, and if the relay weren't so loud I'd be a lot happier with it. But it does make the FloControl valve redundant.

Gordy

You need that valve it prevents gravity circulation to your heating loops. There is a weight inside that lifts when the circulator starts flow, and when the heat call stops the weight seats to prevent gravity circulation.

R2.0

Gordy said:

You need that valve it prevents gravity circulation to your heating loops. There is a weight inside that lifts when the circulator starts flow, and when the heat call stops the weight seats to prevent gravity circulation.

It performed that function with the previous boiler, but the new boiler's valve isolates the loop from boiler when there is no call for heat. Weil McClane did it specifically to prevent gravity circulation.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/cgt_boiler_manual_addendum.pdf

icesailor

We don't discuss pricing here.

When you changed the boiler, unless you did it all yourself, you got prices from multiple venders. At $60.00 per hour labor, that's $1.00 per minute. The time someone figured to remove that valve that doesn't bother anything, will be the difference between the person leaving the valve in place and the one removing it getting the job. When $50.00 will give the job to the lowest price, no matter how bad a job they get, people go with the cheapest job. Cheap equals quality.

If someone hadn't told you the valve needed to be removed, you wouldn't be asking about getting it removed.

If I had priced the job, I would have replaced it with another new but properly sized flow check. Regardless what Weil McLain said. And I probably wouldn't have gotten the job against someone that didn't change it.

Weil McLain put that 3-way check in for other reasons. If there wasn't a problem with the operation of the boiler, they wouldn't have made the modification. The Corporate Overseers that own Weil-McLain don't wear white hats.

R2.0

icesailor said:

We don't discuss pricing here.

When you changed the boiler, unless you did it all yourself, you got prices from multiple venders. At $60.00 per hour labor, that's $1.00 per minute. The time someone figured to remove that valve that doesn't bother anything, will be the difference between the person leaving the valve in place and the one removing it getting the job. When $50.00 will give the job to the lowest price, no matter how bad a job they get, people go with the cheapest job. Cheap equals quality.

Actually, when I initially bid the project the quotes were all wildly different - far more so than $50. They were all reputable local contractors, but this was not a "standard" job, and I can understand the variance. But in any case, all the numbers were well above my budget. My intent *was* to do it myself, but in the end I hired a plumber to do the following scope:
1) Install a new gas line from the meter to a manifold, and from the manifold to the boiler
2) Near boiler piping to existing gate valves on the returns and to the bottom flange of the non-return valve.
3) Connect the tankless coil to the previously abandoned domestic water connections in the boiler room.

That was it. Period. My scope was:
a) Set the boiler
b) Reline the chimney (I had a contractor do that)
c) B-Vent from the boiler to the chimney
d) All electrical work, both power and signal, house side and boiler interconnects, including bonding the CSST.
e) Insulation
f) Startup and Commissioning

The plumber performed his scope well and to my satisfaction, and put a lot of care into pipe routing, etc. I also put a lot of care and attention into my scope. The installation was inspected by the local code authorities. If there's a place for "Show and Tell" threads, I'll be glad to put pictures up for critique.

icesailor said:

If someone hadn't told you the valve needed to be removed, you wouldn't be asking about getting it removed.

The plumber didn't discuss removing the valve because he thought it was necessary. *I* thought it was necessary. But after dealing with the 3 way valve during fill and flush, and reviewing the sequence of operations for the controller, I came to the conclusion that the 3 way valve prevents gravity circulation and existing valve is redundant. In addition, after modelling the system in the Taco FloPro software, I believe the head loss through it may be causing issues with the circulator.

On the other hand, the plumber did suggest an air vent, and offered to install one (with no change in fee) if I were to purchase it. I elected not to because the existing system did not have one, and I like serving my son more than Ramen for dinner, and the $100 for the vent would have come out of that week's grocery budget. There are a LOT of upgrades to the existing system that I would have loved to gave the plumber perform - changing the system from direct return to reverse return and going to a primary/secondary configuration to start. But I couldn't afford them at the time. And I see now that the system needs an air separator, because those mods are going to necessitate draining the system a couple more times at least, and I still haven't gotten all the air out of the last fill.

icesailor said:

If I had priced the job, I would have replaced it with another new but properly sized flow check. Regardless what Weil McLain said. And I probably wouldn't have gotten the job against someone that didn't change it.

Weil McLain put that 3-way check in for other reasons. If there wasn't a problem with the operation of the boiler, they wouldn't have made the modification. The Corporate Overseers that own Weil-McLain don't wear white hats.

I don't really have any response to that. I attached the link to the factory bulletin stating specifically that the change was to prevent gravity flow. Whether that was the *real* reason they did it or not, it does indeed prevent gravity flow.

If you want to tell me that I ought to keep the B&G valve as belts and suspenders, or replace it with a different one, ok, that's advice I can take or leave. If you want to chide me for not installing the air separator in the first place, too late - I already came to that conclusion. But I'm trying to make the best of the situation as it is, not how it should have been.

But my original question was for recommendations between the 2 valves I mentioned. I have seen equipment recommendations before, and the people on this board have the experience to make them. My background is with much, MUCH larger HVAC systems; the principles apply, but the I have very little experience specifying residential equipment. That's why I'm coming to the people who do have that experience.

R2.0

AND I'm an idiot - see new thread with neat stuff regarding old valve.

icesailor

R2.0 said:

AND I'm an idiot - see new thread with neat stuff regarding old valve.

You're NOT an idiot.

As far as resistance of the old valve, if the valve is there still, and you can turn the lever up, you will remove most all resistance to the flow. I've never read anything about those old flow checks added any appreciable resistance to flow.

What model Weil-McLain boiler do you have with the three way valve? The only one I knew that had one was a GV gas boiler, Series 1 and Series 2.

R2.0

Lever won't turn using as much force as my fingers will exert - and I'm not a small guy. And stuck internals would explain the random "clunk" I hear from the basement - it's the weight dropping after getting hung up when the pump shuts off.

When I did the model in FloPro I used the equivalent Taco unit. When I pulled it out of the model, the pump size dropped. I agree that shouldn't have happened - that's part of what led to my other thread.

The boiler is a CGt. It's a weird little thing - one size only, tankless coil standard, no options. The scheme with the 3 way valve is pretty elegant - until they reversed it's function from NO to NC.

icesailor

There was a very old Broadway Musical, maybe "Kismet" where there was a line, "Patience Is Virtue". That has served me well in trouble shooting and repair.

If you get the handle off, and get the not loose, keep the Kroil flowing. If the stem moves even one degree after a time, it will come loose. Your time is yours. It will come loose. The sound you hear is the disk sliding up and down the shaft that it rides on. It has nothing to do with the threading inside the valve.

Gordy

Careful,the packing will leak around the stem possibly so be prepared.

R2.0

OK, so check me on this (see what I did there? ) Sequence of operations for the valve would be as follows:

1. Circ pump starts
   
2. Valve disk lifts, allowing flow to system
   
3. Circ pump stops
   
4. Water still flows from momentum, but as that slows the disk slowly settles onto it's seat, blocking reverse flow.
   

Gordy

Your sequence is correct. But when pump stops water stops no momentum other than the few revolutions the impeller may make do to its momentum if thats what you are thinking. Disk is brass so its going to close quickly do to its weight. Obviously because of the density of the water it wont be like dropping in an empty system. The random clunk sounds odd to me even if the valve was hanging up on the stem the density of the water would slow the weight just the same as if it worked properly.

R2.0

@Gordy, yeah, that's what has me scratching my head. It *shouldn't* be making that noise, but if it isn't I can't figure out what is. If it was spring loaded it would make more sense, but it's not supposed to have a spring in there. I'll figure it out one way or another.