R&D Controls with convectors

ChicagoCooperator

Has anybody had any experience with R&D controls in conjunction with convectors? Their literature doesn't mention them, nor does it mention cycles per hour controls and I haven't been able to reach anybody at the company.

We've been given a proposal for the RF207 system to replace our dead and dying heat-timer. Both our janitor and property manager say they have them in other buildings and, to quote "0 complaints"! I also like the idea of sensors in units, particularly for sunny, windy days when the south half of the building gets solar gain while the north shivers.

http://www.rdcontrolsystems.com/brochure-downloads/broRF207.pdf

Abracadabra

I have installed and maintain boilers with multiple versions of the R&D controls, including the RF207. None are on buildings with convectors. All are steam, cast iron radiators. Everyone seems to be happy with the system. The only thing I wish it had would be ethernet control. You can connect with a PC using hyperterminal, but that is so 1970s. I'd suggest whoever puts it in for you use some type of surge protection on the power supply. I've had a couple crap out due to power surges. Customer service is great for me though since they are local and I can just stop in and get a replacement. If you can't reach anyone email or leave a message when you call. They'll get back to you.

ChicagoCooperator

Thanks, glad to hear that another person is satisfied. I re-read the basic cut sheet last night and it looks like, from that, the cycle is adjustable down from an hour, so I will read the set-up manual and see what that says.

What about a vax terminal? That would be ideal, right?

Abracadabra

ChicagoCooperator said:

...the cycle is adjustable down from an hour...

What about a vax terminal? That would be ideal, right?

There is no "cycle/hour" control. You control the average temp rise.

A VAX terminal I believe should work, although I haven't tried. I've setup a cheap PC so customer can log in remotely to view/set the control.

ChicagoCooperator

Abracadabra said:

There is no "cycle/hour" control. You control the average temp rise.

A VAX terminal I believe should work, although I haven't tried. I've setup a cheap PC so customer can log in remotely to view/set the control.

Yeah, I realized that once I read the manual. It will be interesting to see how it works.

I don't think we'll hook it up externally, I don't want to deal with the complications of that in our building.

ChicagoCooperator

We've approved it, so now just waiting for install. I'm eager to see how it responds to some of our unique "situations" with regards to bizarre modifications in units and temperature unevenness. Will post an update once it's in.

Abracadabra

If you're getting the one with wireless sensors, you can use one sensor as a "temporary" moving unit, so that will help you balance your system out. Setup 6 of the sensors as "fixed", balance those units out, then move one of the sensors from one unit to the next over several weeks. Balance the unit to the 6 fixed before moving the sensor to another unit.

ChicagoCooperator

Waiting for install now - has been ordered. Am excited to have reliable, more even heat (my unit is generally OK, but when the heat-timer cuts out, it cools down of course).

ChicagoCooperator

Still waiting for install - all the people who have no heat at all take priority (naturally, it's been crazy with single digit lows before December thanks to our arctic blasts). And the worst part? The old heat timer has been working perfectly!

ChicagoCooperator

So the install happened yesterday. First thing we've noticed is that the sensor location (see attached, our building is a shallow 'H' shape or fat 'I', I can't rotate pdf's once created so north is to the right) is probably not optimal. They installed the sensors in the interior hallways (x marks the spot) and the sensors were registering around 70 while the main living rooms were, depending upon unit, 65 or 63. We bumped up the set point a bit to warm things up. I think we'll have to adjust the night temperature as well - seems like it was dipping down too far during the night.

The other things I noticed were that my bedroom which has always been too warm, was actually cooler than the other rooms, which was great and the other interesting thing was the boiler seemed to be running a more quietly than before - I don't know if the burner control interface has changed off the top of my head.

So now we have to figure out the optimal temperature settings and sensor locations.

nicholas bonham-carter

Are there radiators in the sensor area?
I'm not sure those locations are optimal, as you would want the system to be able to feel the temperature in the coolest living space.--NBC

ChicagoCooperator

No, no heating units, they are in a hallway adjacent to the inside stairwell. We're going to have to start moving them around a bit. We're a mix of original convectors and replacement radiators (I'm almost entirely convectored, even the replacements, except for the stupid one-pipe bathroom radiator, yes, on a two-pipe system).

And thanks for your response, we felt the same way too. At least they are only stuck on with tape. My only concern is putting them in the coldest, typically, room, the dining room, is that may cause overheating elsewhere. But we'll figure it out.

Abracadabra

All sensors are wireless? Are any wired? How many sensors are in use and how many units in total does the building have?

ChicagoCooperator

All wireless, 4 total. I'm thinking we might need more, but for the moment we'll start there. Where we are that is.

8 floors in building, ground floor only has four convectors, one in rental unit (small studio apartment), one each in "exercise" room, bike room and foyer - rest of ground floor is exposed pipes, service spaces. Only a partial basement, a storage room with exposed returns and the lower portion of boiler room.

14 units, 2 per floor, 2-7 are almost identical, 8th floor has smaller units (north unit only has three heating units, huge radiator in extra height living room, convector in kitchen/dining and cast iron baseboard piped with, blech, copper, in bathroom, for some reason bedroom convectors were replaced with electric baseboard in the 90's!!!).

We chose units based on who was coldest and who was too warm and who would be amenable to having a sensor, small as they are, in their unit (or wouldn't tamper with it). Two on north side and two on south (one gets almost no sun and one, mine, that gets a lot). We put two on the second floor, since one side is always (very) cold and the other side, generally, warm, being partially over the boiler room and then one on the 5th floor and the last one on the 6th floor.

Abracadabra

The electric baseboard heat in the bedrooms will throw off the control. Keep the sensors as far as possible from alternate sources of heat.

nicholas bonham-carter

When you have finished with the venting solutions, this system may work quite well. I wouldn't expect much improvement until that balancing has been done.--NBC

ChicagoCooperator

Thanks for the responses, no sensors are in units with electric heat. I'm not sure the system is unbalanced, but there have been a lot of stupid modifications over the years that will gradually have to be addressed. I've moved the sensor in my unit to the room that cools off the fastest and it seems to have made night temperatures better. I'm going to have to start moving the sensors in other units - the hallways stay too warm with too little variation, what has been happening is a "dead zone" during the middle of the day when there is no call for heat because the hallways stay warm while the rest of the apartment cools down quite a bit.

ChicagoCooperator

The one thing I forgot to mention is that the sensors seem to read "high" - I have one next to (granted, old and probably not all that accurate) a thermometer which reads 68.x and I'll go down to the controller and the sensor indicates 70.x or so. Not a problem, just an observation that one can control for.

Abracadabra

if it's a glass thermometer, it should be relatively accurate. I think the sensors internally have a pot you can adjust to tweak the temps.

nicholas bonham-carter

A second accurate thermometer would enable you to check on the operation of these sensors and of the whole new control system.--NBC

ChicagoCooperator

At the moment, I'm just happy that we have a functioning control system after the dying days of the old Heat-timer.

ChicagoCooperator

SO... A further follow up on our system improvements.

1. The basics now work correctly - in other words, the controls actually work and turn on the burner with a call for heat.
2. Generally the heating levels are fine (at least in my unit and according to the current sensor locations), but could, can and will be fine tuned with some sensor relocation now that the holidays are over and done with.
3. There seems to be a "dead zone" or cold spot mid-morning/mid-day that I think will be cured by relocating the sensors. I haven't noticed this, being at work and all, during the day.

There are other problems, either independent of or related to to the controls (which are being exposed by the new controls). There seems to be a balance problem this year on the north main (we have two mains, north and south, that go from the back of the building to the front). I can't tell yet if part of it is related to a temporarily open wall cooling* off the uninsulated main (it provides heat to the storage room) or if the F&T trap is faulty. I think we have a lot of failed steam traps which is my next investigative project along with mapping the system.

* This is allowing the boiler to suck heated air out of the back of house common areas for combustion - not what one wants in an arctic blast or polar vortex situation. It was opened for pipes to be installed and not closed off yet.

Abracadabra

ChicagoCooperator said:

3. There seems to be a "dead zone" or cold spot mid-morning/mid-day that I think will be cured by relocating the sensors. I haven't noticed this, being at work and all, during the day.

Are you using the "Alternate" temp setting as a morning/evening boost or a mid-day setback?

ChicagoCooperator

Abracadabra said:

Are you using the "Alternate" temp setting as a morning/evening boost or a mid-day setback?

Nope, no middle of the day setbacks or boosts. I haven't noticed it myself so it could just be my neighbor. Everything is set to be uniform through the seven day cycle - like a 1.5 F setback at night.

ChicagoCooperator

I'm beginning to suspect it's a two-part problem;

1. Sensors being satisfied too soon (haven't gotten to moving them yet, two neighbors balking and other stuff getting in the way of the other one) due to internal location with little heat loss.

2. Balance problem - longer term problem. Will be doing an upcoming post on that....

Abracadabra

ChicagoCooperator said:

I'm beginning to suspect it's a two-part problem;

1. Sensors being satisfied too soon (haven't gotten to moving them yet, two neighbors balking and other stuff getting in the way of the other one) due to internal location with little heat loss.

There's an adjust on the RD to control the average building temp rise. You may have it set too low.

ChicagoCooperator

I need to reread the manual and see what it's set at currently.

I've been very comfortable lately - the temperature in my unit has been more even, both throughout the unit and in consistancy - and I might add, lower, especially in rooms that were too hot. I relocated one of the sensors lower in the building to a room that cools down quicker and it seemed to help. I'm working on the other two locations - people seem not to get the importance of it....

ChicagoCooperator

Just to update, I did two things, that seem to have fixed the problems. I made two setting adjustments - first, I raised the temperature rise up slightly and then I made sure that the alternate setting was equal to the main setpoint (I also temporarily, at least, eliminated the night setback - or did I drastically reduce it). I cannot tell from the timer exactly which mode or program its on - the timer is really the most opaque part of the system and I don't like it very much, it's more like a conventional thermostat (it doesn't help that the installation location - the only one possible - doesn't allow a clumsy oaf like me to get a good view at the display). On the coldest day of the year (I think, it was certainly record cold) the dead zone was gone that had been there the day before and at least one person mentioned that they were comfortable all day long (and two others said they were fine).

Abracadabra

You can control the RD remotely using RS-232 and terminal program as a client on your computer. I have setup the RD for several of my customers with a remote setup/control.

ChicagoCooperator

That would be way too complicated and, well, end in disaster (cause other people would want access and mess with settings constantly, plus I don't want to have that easy access or I would be totally obsess with it).

icesailor

If you want to play with different locations, get a Honeywell Red Hat wireless thermostat and controls. You can mount the thermostat on a board and move it around to different locations. Electronic thermostats don't care how they are mounted. Especially wireless ones.

I had a job at a winery and the owner stored cased wine in his home cellar. Someone made a mess of his heat. They connected a old cast iron radiator through series looped baseboard upstairs that had a wood stove. There were only outside walls, no place to mount a thermostat. The owner could look for cold spots that could damage his valuable wine and move the thermostat to that location. Just by leaning it on some wine boxes. Just in case it might help.

There may be better ones now. When they came out, they were slick.

Tinman

This doesn't help at all so I apologize for that but today I looked at two apartment buildings on the south side of Chicago and they both had R&D Controls - Model 1430 to be exact. First time I've ever seen them.

ChicagoCooperator

Stephen Minnich said:

This doesn't help at all so I apologize for that but today I looked at two apartment buildings on the south side of Chicago and they both had R&D Controls - Model 1430 to be exact. First time I've ever seen them.

I know you weren't it my building...

I think its a factor of what building managers and boiler control installers favor in Chicago.

Abracadabra

R&D is based in Morton Grove, IL, and as far as I know, they used to have their stuff sold thru only a number of supplyhouses in and around Chicago. It's basically a 2 man shop over at R&D. I'd be surprised if any of their controls really made it outside of the Chicagoland area.