New steam mini-tube installation in Ohio

gerry gill

We recently finished adding steam to a house in University Hts Ohio, where the customer has had a furnace for years. She has bad allergies and her allergies bother her the most when the furnasty runs. We installed radiators and a steam mini tube system for her. The city had no idea what to do with that permit when i applied for it, but the inspector loved the job. I asked the customer how she liked the steam, and here is her email reply.

''Actually Phil and I were saying today how the radiator sizes really fit the use of each room--office, bathrooms, living room and kitchen table are toasty, and the rest of the house seems just right. We used to freeze in the office, downstairs bath and living room couch, so the difference is great. ''

The furnace was a 100k input and the steam boiler is a 105k input, so it is going to be fun to track this gas bill.

We get steam to the end of the mains in a little over a minute once steam starts to enter the takeoffs.

Steamhead

Beautiful!

Is the coil of copper pipe serving as a cooling leg?

And is this gravity-return?

ChrisJ

Where do you get radiators for these systems? Do you buy new, or find used ones somewhere?

vaporvac

Amazing. Somehow I missed that one could use old cast iron rads. THAT is totally rad! So beautiful. Please keep us informed of the numbers when you get them. Could you explain the purpose of the copper coil? I'm also wondering if you've ever had a chance to experiment with vacuum on your own system.

gerry gill

The copper coil is indeed a cooling leg to allow the trap to open. The radiators were all used radiators that were sandblasted and powdercoated which now look brand new. The one exception is the powder room radiator which i made out of 2x4 steel tubing so that it would fit beside the toilet tank.

gerry gill

Oh, sorry Steamhead, forgot to answer your question, it is a pumped return just like my house. Not enough B dimension.

EzzyT

Beautiful and great craftsmanship as always Gerry. Are those brass piping going into the inlet side of the radiator valve and leaving the traps?

gerry gill

EzzyT said:

Beautiful and great craftsmanship as always Gerry. Are those brass piping going into the inlet side of the radiator valve and leaving the traps?

Hi Ezzy- yes, that was special order 3/8 brass pipe. Came in weird lengths, 11 feet.

gerry gill

vaporvac said:

Amazing. Somehow I missed that one could use old cast iron rads. THAT is totally rad! So beautiful. Please keep us informed of the numbers when you get them. Could you explain the purpose of the copper coil? I'm also wondering if you've ever had a chance to experiment with vacuum on your own system.

The cooling leg is required when using a thermostatic trap as a drip trap instead of say an f&t trap. The thermostatic element needs to cool off about 20 degrees to open. The condensate would then 'back up' into the main with hammering to follow. The cooling leg, or 'slinky' as we call it allows a decent linear length of cooling leg in a relatively short area.

EzzyT

That 2"x4" steel tubing you used is a really neat and cool thing.
What kind of vents did you use at the end of the mains and on the thermostatic traps?

gerry gill

EzzyT said:

That 2"x4" steel tubing you used is a really neat and cool thing.
What kind of vents did you use at the end of the mains and on the thermostatic traps?

Sterling f&t traps on the end of the mains. And of course the terminal vent is the vent pipe of the condensate tank.

EzzyT

Would love to see the system in action

KC_Jones

And now you are making homemade radiators?! That is gorgeous work as usual! Question about the radiator you made, would something like that work well on a one pipe system? I can weld fairly well and seeing that has my brain working!

gerry gill

KC_Jones said:

And now you are making homemade radiators?! That is gorgeous work as usual! Question about the radiator you made, would something like that work well on a one pipe system? I can weld fairly well and seeing that has my brain working!

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on one pipe steam as long as attention is paid to the sizing of the inlet pipe,

nicholas bonham-carter

Wonderful job!
Could you have used 1/2 inch pipe, or would that have been more expensive?
Did you size the boiler from a heat loss, or from the radiation?
You are certainly pushing the envelope for all of us here!--NBC

Steamhead

Gerry, you should patent that radiator and put it on the market. Also do a hot-water version if you can. I've worked on jobs where I almost would have killed for something like that.

gerry gill

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Wonderful job!
Could you have used 1/2 inch pipe, or would that have been more expensive?
Did you size the boiler from a heat loss, or from the radiation?
You are certainly pushing the envelope for all of us here!--NBC

Iron fireman called for sizing their system to the heat loss, which makes for quite a small boiler, but they also used turbine heaters and convectors..with iron radiators my gut instinct was to allow more.. with iron rads i recommend sizing to the rads but then sizing the boiler output to this number, that way the 1/3 extra boiler for piping and pick up is removed..a little bit of un-charted territory here.

gerry gill

Steamhead said:

Gerry, you should patent that radiator and put it on the market. Also do a hot-water version if you can. I've worked on jobs where I almost would have killed for something like that.

Hadn't thought of the patent. Once its in the public its to late i believe. It was actually easy to make. I had wanted to put two in so it looked like the twin towers but was kind of over ruled there.

ChrisJ

gerry gill said:

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Wonderful job!
Could you have used 1/2 inch pipe, or would that have been more expensive?
Did you size the boiler from a heat loss, or from the radiation?
You are certainly pushing the envelope for all of us here!--NBC

Iron fireman called for sizing their system to the heat loss, which makes for quite a small boiler, but they also used turbine heaters and convectors..with iron radiators my gut instinct was to allow more.. with iron rads i recommend sizing to the rads but then sizing the boiler output to this number, that way the 1/3 extra boiler for piping and pick up is removed..a little bit of un-charted territory here.

One of my favorites.

gerry gill

Way to funny ChrisJ

TheRooster

This is amazing work, I wish someone with your talent and skill was around these parts.

Did you insulate all the minitube lines?

gerry gill

TheRooster said:

This is amazing work, I wish someone with your talent and skill was around these parts.

Did you insulate all the minitube lines?

Yes, we insulated the tubing that was in exterior walls, but not the basement. We are trying to get some heat off the basement tubes as the city required outside combustion air via a window damper that is going to cool the basement alot.

Bio

I understand it should run at higher pressure than the usual set up, at what pressure is it running and at how many CPH is the tstat set for

gerry gill

Bio said:

I understand it should run at higher pressure than the usual set up, at what pressure is it running and at how many CPH is the tstat set for

I have the pressuretrol set at 3 psi cutout with 1 pound differential, and the cph set at 3.

ChrisJ

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

nicholas bonham-carter

Why does it need such higher pressure?--NBC

ChrisJ

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Why does it need such higher pressure?--NBC

My guess is smaller tubing needs a little more of a push to get the same volume through.

gerry gill

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Why does it need such higher pressure?--NBC

Friction

gerry gill

ChrisJ said:

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

i'm saving that picture, lol

Patrick_North

This kind of thing makes me really, really happy.
Do you have any pictures of or can you describe how the in-wall feed transitions to the floor-to-radiator stubout? Or are only the condensate returns in the wall?
Do you have any plans to document the modern mini-tube system for use by others (beyond these posts, that is)?
Inspiring stuff, even for us non-pros!
Thanks,
Patrick

gerry gill

Patrick_North said:

This kind of thing makes me really, really happy.
Do you have any pictures of or can you describe how the in-wall feed transitions to the floor-to-radiator stubout? Or are only the condensate returns in the wall?
Do you have any plans to document the modern mini-tube system for use by others (beyond these posts, that is)?
Inspiring stuff, even for us non-pros!
Thanks,
Patrick

I didn't take any pictures of the transition, not sure why..but its 3/8th iron pipe size brass threads with either a coupling or 90 degree brass elbow and a male thread by flare adapter fitting.

I will attach the original instruction manual..it may seem confusing because the name on it is Turbonics. Iron Fireman at some point sold the rights to the system to Turbonics, another local company that makes heaters that can be used with this system.

RobG

You sure know how to lock in a customer for life! No one is ever going to be able to work on that system but you! Did they keep the air as a backup and for AC? I see it's still hiding next to the boiler.

gerry gill

RobG said:

You sure know how to lock in a customer for life! No one is ever going to be able to work on that system but you! Did they keep the air as a backup and for AC? I see it's still hiding next to the boiler.

correct, we didn't remove what was there so that they could use the a/c if desired.

NYplumber

Just like the job in your home, the install looks flawless. Use a gravity return and add a 750mv gas valve and they will have a system that will run regardless if there is a power outage.

Again, GREAT JOB!

Patrick_North

As has been pointed out earlier, this type of install eliminates many of the difficulties in making apples-to-apples comparisons with similar hot water systems. As your experience with this type of system grows do you have any new thoughts on how mini tube steam stacks up to hot water?
Thanks,
Patrick

gerry gill

I don't know, hadn't really thought about it. I asked my wife the other day, how much our gas bill was on the budget plan..she replied that we hadn't been on the budget for several years as we had such a high credit we wouldn't get it back if we stayed on the budget..so i know it beats the crap out of forced air..i do remember when the gas company demanded entrance to the house to inspect the gas meter..not sure if thats what you were getting at.

SWEI

gerry gill said:

i do remember when the gas company demanded entrance to the house to inspect the gas meter

I love it when that happens. Probably the clearest indication we have really done our job...

Patrick_North

That's great news. Mini tube seems a lot easier to install than a standard iron 1-pipe system while maintaining a similar simple elegance. What's you assessment of installation cost generally (I know we're not supposed to talk pricing, specifically) of mini-tube versus hot water? I know that's not an apples to apples comparison, but I'm still curious.
And speaking of tricky apples to oranges comparisons... When discussing differences in hot water versus steam systems, higher efficiency mod-con boilers are often the factor people point to in giving hot water the advantage. But though you're not (currently, anyway) able to make use of a higher efficiency mod-con boiler, it seems clear that the system losses in a mini tube are very, very low. What's your theoretical assessment of overall system efficiency with mini tube steam versus hot water? Again, I know there are way too many variables to make that a straightforward question, but I'm curious if you have any thoughts.
I've got to say, even as someone not in the trade, this kind of initiative and enthusiasm for one's craft is refreshing and inspiring.
Thanks,
Patrick

ChicagoCooperator

Gerry - nice install. After reading the brochure/manual you linked I had to look up the Iron Fireman and found this, which appears to be yours. Really an intriguing designed system.

http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/webapp/GetFile?fid={D69BB423-EB8B-4B0D-8FF2-2071A398CB80}

I'm totally going to try to find the model house in Lagrange. Any idea how the turbine powered fans worked? The only problem I see is they looked too much like the electric wall heaters you'd find in a bathroom - I'm tempted to do sketch up a design for a more attractive version just for fun.

KC_Jones

Need something like this to put as an ornament on top of the boiler. lol
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Iron-Fireman-Home-Decor-Key-Candy-Coin-Tray-Advertising-Collectible-Man-Cave-/321546298263?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item4adda72397

ChrisJ

Oh how I would love to have that.
Not $100 worth of love, but....