flow meter?

archibald tuttle

Ok, after a legion thread of my own that i kept hijacking where flow rate kept coming up. But the only flowmeters i generally run across are set up with special threading to install on premade manifolds. Ebay is full of chinese digital flowmeters that aren't made for heating temps for the most part. If I understood the uponor or rifeng thread conventions could i install one of theirs inline, or is their a modest cost option i'm missing for retrofitting.

looks like the rifeng would operate in a tee whereas the uponor is designed to go inline going into (or maybe out of) thier manifold. the uponor's i see only go up 2 gpm and our discussions have ranged to 4 on the high side.

thanks,

brian

Gordy

Why the need for flow meters? Have faith in the math, and you should be close enough no?

icesailor

Well, for we shade tree mechanics that spent far too much time in the dark with spiders and rodents, Some found that gauge ports on the supply and return and taking the differential pressure, and comparing it to the installed pump and the pump curve for that pump will get you as close as you need to be.

On those big commercial jobs designed my ME's, they specify flow rates. They install "Circuit Setters" in each loop, and you put instruments to get the differential pressure. They look on a chart and it gives you the flow. So they "Set" the circuits for the proper flow.

I didn't have the instrumentation to do the flow calculation, but the shade tree method was like Horseshoes and Hand Grenades.

Use a InfraRed Temperature heat gun on it. Some aren't to enthusiastic about them. I've used them for years with good and understandable results. "Know Thine Instrument".

There's a world wide run on them right now. Everyone is using them to check temperatures looking for Ebola victims. If they are accurate enough to be used on humans at the Delta T they are looking for, they are good enough for some heating system.

archibald tuttle

i know this is a calculable deal and i could estimate based on the parameters outlined. go upstairs count feet of pipe and bends and whatnot, but my real desire is to measure and adjust and monitor performance in terms of comparative temps indoors and out based on that flow rate.

in theory you can measure combustion performance by outlet temp., input btus and a measure of flue gas. but they have these little machines that do it for us these days which i like not because i can't use a calculator but because they can real time during adjustments.

on the flow side, ironically, if they just built higher temped bodies these little digital ones form china are the nuts. and obviously it is just cheapskate version of some of the instrumentation controlled variable pumps and complex control stuff like TACO's iworx.

I'm not really looking for an electric logging one (although if i could get one for $35 bucks i'd be onboard). Just a simple visual flowmeter. It obviously was considered a useful option (or even necessity) on advanced floor manifolds. I just want to walk that technology back to the dinosaur systems , because they live on.

brian

Gordy

Ports fore, and aft of circulator with psi gauges is a sure means of calculating head, and using pump curve for circ to plot flow. Even the fancy ecm circs with gpm read out are so so with their accuracy.

archibald tuttle

good point. i always believed in pressure monitoring for circulation in general. probably the smart way to go is to get with these chinese device makers and just take two digital pressure gauges and hook 'em up to a ten dollar box that you program the pump curve and then you get a direct read out of flow and trigger an alarm if the pump is running and your flow drops below (or for that matter goes above) as certain point.

for now, probably a couple cheap gauges is better than nothin'.

speaking of which, why don't they make those bronze flanges with the bleeding ports with some tappings in addition, or instead. I tend to lead pex from a hard connection to the drain for bleeding anyway so i don't really need the hose outlet but it seems silly to put the gauge on a hose thread although they make those up for quick temp use.

never actually looked at one closely, but i don't think the hose thread is an adapater you can back out and get to pipe thread.

brian

archibald tuttle

i remember the pumps for the heatmakers used to come with the flanges tapped from the edge with 1/8" pipe thread so you could put the differential pressure safety on which save a lot of heat maker coils after they started proving circulation.

i really like that control strategy for various stuff but it never took off and the switch runs over a hundred bucks so i just never used them for various applications where i would have liked to monitor circulation. and of course it was a threshold switch. it didn't give variable output.

hot_rod

is this something of interest. It is a visual indicator when you pull the ring, and has a valve for adjusting or fine tuning the flow

http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/01149_11na.pdf

SWEI

Dwyer makes wet-wet differential pressure switches that sell for around $50. Make that a transducer and you'll spend a tad over $200 for it.

Gordy

Cute little bugger Hot Rod. +/- 10% accuracy ?

archibald tuttle

hot rod

cant quite understand the scale on that beauty.
it is cute. does both functions i have in mind. without getting into numbers lets just say the scale of cost is right on the bubble enough to make me think twice about building one by attaching uponor to a balancing valve.

. imagine if you this were regular item on every zone in every house the sunk cost of figuring out that cute magnet signal could be spread across more units and id go all in. im seriously considering these.

hot_rod

these here screw onto manifold branches, if that is what you need?

archibald tuttle

hot rod,

i saw some uponors similar to that 669 series. don't know if the measurement tech itself is comparable but they thread onto manifolds also. can i get sweat on male and female manifold adapaters so i can put this on a standard 3/4" line?

and on the 132 series, i see a fair amount of o-ring seals if i'm reading the diagrams right. a double on the balancing valve maybe and then on the connections of the flow meter. whats the servicability/service life of the approach. i know you guys know this equipment fairly well and aren't going to make anything designed to fail, but nothing is forever. Don't know if the choice of FIPS is to keep soldering heat away and/or how about a union style connection either the "G" style or manifold or . . .

i know that would be back to the mold shop so don't go rushing on my account. just daydreaming. if this is essentially a forever device at baseboard, i.e. substeam but hotter than radiant, temps looks like a goer for me as is.

find supply houses stocking, the 3/4" especially. the premium on the bigger ones is dear. I do wonder a little about the internal design of the main flow. it looks a little restricted from the nominal even with the balancing valve full on. it might have the slightest venturi look at the entry. normally i wouldn't loose sleep using a 3/4" on a 1" feed because they were all oversized anyway and 1" pipe didn't cost what 1/2" does now back in the day. still think i'm probably OK since it is only a short restriction and probably the vast majority of these are overpumping anyway. these were 'designed' to get a lot of really hot water into the pipes in a hurry for instant satisfaction. but they used all element in a lot of them there is a lot of room for varying operational parameters, which is why i kind of what to experiment in the first place.

i hate to chinse out but 3/4" is such an obvious seller and i'm finding 25% upgrade to get 1". makes absolute sense on a units shipped basis. i'm not whining, just wondering.

brian

archibald tuttle

another question for all you fluid math types. my instinct is, if i got "x" gpm in a 3/4" flow gauge and the element is 3/4", that is my flow rate in the element. the fact that there is some 1" feed to the element in the basement means that there would be slower flow rate in the supply piping -- by comparing the square of the radiuses i could figure it -- but the flow in the element would be approx the same as the flow in the gauge.

icesailor

Are you chasing your tail? Maybe this is totally bogus. Maybe I'm totally bogus and came to a totally incorrect conclusion. I can be told I don't know **** I am talking about.

They make these inexpensive Tridicator gauges for Mod-Con and other beer cooler boilers. 1/4" NPT with long and short insertion probes. Actually, they come with and fit ALL boilers. A short one will fit inside of a 3/4" Copper X 3/4" FPT adapter with a bushing, or whatever you can find that keeps the probe from hitting the back of the tube but still in the flow stream. Put a Tee Set on either side of the circulator or on the supply and return of anything you want to prove or check.

If you put one on the supply coming out of the boiler and another on the return where you purge or wherever your heart is content to have it, once the system starts, you can note the differential pressure, If the system is set at 12# when it is idle, and when the pump starts, the outlet goes to 15#, and the return drops to 9#, you have 6# of differential pressure or 13.86' of head pressure. Rounded off to 14', look on the proper pump chart for the pump being used, and see how many GPM that pressure/head equals. That is supposed to be what the GPM that pump is pumping, regardless of the age of the pump. Then, take the temperature differential between what goes out and what comes back. That should give you what or how many BTU's is lost to the emitters, within any amount of reason that you should need. Once you do a couple, you understand the futility of OCD and trying to understand the perfect system. The Hackaroos don't know, don't understand, nor do they care.

And if you have to compete against them for price, you will know what you are doing, and you get to see the really FU'ed jobs done by Hackaroos that don't understand that it is a good idea to squat against a tree when you are in the woods.

So, if you try the above on a couple of systems, you will learn that some of the people that promote this stuff, have a lot of really good theoretical knowledge, but little practical "In the field" knowledge. That the perfection you are looking for is unattainable, 100% of the time. You don't have to be around long to know that the 20 Degree Delta T you desire is usually much less because there isn't enough emitters in a loop, but the sum total of ALL the loops might give you the Delta T you strive for. Or maybe it will be greater than a 20 degree drop. Or, maybe the GPM/flow will go up and down.

Then, you might figure out a lot of things about pumping. That it is a fluid issue. Like an airplane flying. It takes a lot of power to take off and fly to altitude. Less power once you achieve altitude, and little of no power when you want to descend. You back off the RPM so you don't put the engine and prop into over speed.

My last house, I had completely build, I didn't plumb it or heat it. I didn't have time because of work. There were 5 zones with Taco 573 zone valves and the Taco 007 that came with the boiler. The system worked flawlessly. It needed two 40 VA transformers to operate the zone valves. Flawlessly. How much more would the installation have cost me if they had used all 007's (5) and relays to operate the circulators (probably wired as wrongly as the Zone Valves were) plus the flow control valves for each zone? And each and every zone would be way over pumped.

Add that all up and compare it to how I would have done it with Zone Valves (like was done) and the total price against using Circulators. Would I have gotten the job if I used Circulators? Against someone using Zone Valves? Using all Bumblebee's? I did switched to a Wilo ECM as soon as I found out about them. Nothing changed. I felt good about it though.

Where I worked, the Hydronic Heating business collapsed when they started giving away Electric heat. When they stopped giving it away and people couldn't afford to run it, Hydronics came back. The competition was now HVAC, with boilers installed by AC people with atmospheric gas boilers and undersized air handlers. You can't compete. In fact, you really can't compete with HVAC/Air handlers.

Learn what I said above. Its all the same. Then, maybe you'll understand my thing about bigger pumps are the solution for all that one thinks is wrong. They're not.

KISS (Keep It Simple but don't be Stupid).

hot_rod

archibald tuttle said:

hot rod,

i saw some uponors similar to that 669 series. don't know if the measurement tech itself is comparable but they thread onto manifolds also. can i get sweat on male and female manifold adapaters so i can put this on a standard 3/4" line?

and on the 132 series, i see a fair amount of o-ring seals if i'm reading the diagrams right. a double on the balancing valve maybe and then on the connections of the flow meter. whats the servicability/service life of the approach. i know you guys know this equipment fairly well and aren't going to make anything designed to fail, but nothing is forever. Don't know if the choice of FIPS is to keep soldering heat away and/or how about a union style connection either the "G" style or manifold or . . .

i know that would be back to the mold shop so don't go rushing on my account. just daydreaming. if this is essentially a forever device at baseboard, i.e. substeam but hotter than radiant, temps looks like a goer for me as is.

find supply houses stocking, the 3/4" especially. the premium on the bigger ones is dear. I do wonder a little about the internal design of the main flow. it looks a little restricted from the nominal even with the balancing valve full on. it might have the slightest venturi look at the entry. normally i wouldn't loose sleep using a 3/4" on a 1" feed because they were all oversized anyway and 1" pipe didn't cost what 1/2" does now back in the day. still think i'm probably OK since it is only a short restriction and probably the vast majority of these are overpumping anyway. these were 'designed' to get a lot of really hot water into the pipes in a hurry for instant satisfaction. but they used all element in a lot of them there is a lot of room for varying operational parameters, which is why i kind of what to experiment in the first place.

i hate to chinse out but 3/4" is such an obvious seller and i'm finding 25% upgrade to get 1". makes absolute sense on a units shipped basis. i'm not whining, just wondering.

brian

The 132 is a fairly simple, basic, but unique balance valve. What is different from the other brands is the meter, or indicator is included on the valve. So no need to own, or borrow a differential ∆P meter. This allows the installer to set the flow and the commissioning agent to confirm the flow easily. Or adjustments made later on.

The only time there is flow thru the indicator is when you pull the ring, otherwise it is basically a ball valve. The fluid never travels through the window, so it will stay clear for future readings.

Correct there needs to be an orifice or Venturi inside balance valves to allow them to work. Many methods to provide that cones, plugs, disc, flapper, laser cut slots, among others. Some balance valves have adjustable orifices, some fixed, depends on what the application is. And how much you want to spend.

Balancing may be the most complex part of hydronics, see Idronics 8 for a good, easy to read overview.
http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/idronics_8.pdf


Select the 132 for the flow rate at the upper end of the scale, not the pipe size. Any valve really should be sized by Cv not actual pipe size. With a balance valve no reason to buy oversized and crank the adjuster way down. With todays VS circs much of the balance can be done at the pump, the valve provides fine tuning.

We are surrounded by o-rings in our life, don't fear them
As long as they are top quality and made from the appropriate material they last.
O-rings on hydraulic cylinders, faucet stems and spouts will wear from motion and use, they have a life expectancy, just as we do.
O-rings, or any seal fail prematurely mainly from abuse, over-heating during installation, aggressive or high TDS fluids, excessive pressure, etc.

archibald tuttle

actually looking to go smaller pumps, but i agree i can chase my tail. seems to work for the dog . . .

two tees and two gauges is a solution. i've already used it as a surrogate indicator on several systems.

and, in dog pack terms, i'm kind of walking the whole thing back to the alpha male concept. that is essentially a smaller pump that can get bigger. and they are starting to hit a sweet spot having brought all the operating logic into the single unit and selling relay a single pump to do everything from an 003 up to an 008 so they can really kick out the number of units and the price reflects it.

essentially, that is the onboard control strategy for the alpha, insofar as i can tell. and it gives readout of flow rate - pressure differential would be fine, it just does the calc and because it is settable to specific pressure differential you can reverse engineer their algorithm. of course the additional real advantage is it can be set to adjust itself not only for multiple zones but presumably if you get a pressure drop if your extrol is losing air or bladder leak it pumps harder when the pressure drops if is enought to result in a lower differential across the pump.

i haven't gone way into the literature. the next neat thing would be if it had outputs for a logger, for us folks who like to chase our tails through lone lines of figures.

don't know what the green equivalent is but I might be speaking swedish this week.

bob_46

If you want to measure ∆ P across pump DO NOT use two gauges there is too much room for error. Build a little manifold with a couple of valves and use one gauge. The easiest and least expensive way is to install Pete's plugs on earthier side of the pump. On large jobs it's pretty much standard specs from the ME to pipe one gauge across the pump with two valves.

hot_rod

archibald tuttle said:

actually looking to go smaller pumps, but i agree i can chase my tail. seems to work for the dog . . .

two tees and two gauges is a solution. i've already used it as a surrogate indicator on several systems.

and, in dog pack terms, i'm kind of walking the whole thing back to the alpha male concept. that is essentially a smaller pump that can get bigger. and they are starting to hit a sweet spot having brought all the operating logic into the single unit and selling relay a single pump to do everything from an 003 up to an 008 so they can really kick out the number of units and the price reflects it.

essentially, that is the onboard control strategy for the alpha, insofar as i can tell. and it gives readout of flow rate - pressure differential would be fine, it just does the calc and because it is settable to specific pressure differential you can reverse engineer their algorithm. of course the additional real advantage is it can be set to adjust itself not only for multiple zones but presumably if you get a pressure drop if your extrol is losing air or bladder leak it pumps harder when the pressure drops if is enought to result in a lower differential across the pump.

i haven't gone way into the literature. the next neat thing would be if it had outputs for a logger, for us folks who like to chase our tails through lone lines of figures.

don't know what the green equivalent is but I might be speaking swedish this week.

I wouldn't bet the farm on those GPM readouts on any of the ECM circs. Same for those vortex type flow readers.

A flow meter, rotary meter or Ultrasonic flow gauge are a better way to confirm flow.

I agree with Bob, a differential pressure gauge is the most accurate method to read two pressures. Digital and analog types are available. Borrow one from your local friendly B&G rep.

archibald tuttle

hot rod,

i'm not wooed into thinking that the digital output of the alpha is high accurate, but is it accurate enough. obviously the pump runs based on what it thinks is happening for a pressure differential.

while i like the idea of single pressure gauge and open a valve one way or the other to read up and downstream pressure with the same gauge, my practical approach is to discount the actual numbers i'm reading on the gauge and watch for relative change on the gauges when the pumps turn on.

that is how i read most of the big systems i monitor for circ. and if i want to know the delta P- i add the fall in the one gauge to the rise in the other. obviously there is a margin for error there but that seems to have been a pretty good seat of the pants method for chasing my tail beyond the simple notion that there is any pressure change at all which proves some circulation.

probably i can go find threads here on the accuracy of alphas and see what grundfos has to say about it -- which i think really go to their utility as balancing devices as much as their utility as indicators.

as much as i try to reason my way into every action i take with a system, HVAC has been a monkey see monkey do trade for a long time. and somewhere the theory and practices got inserted into the general pattern but if they get lost we are less able to make modest thoughtful adjustment. so the reason i'm looking for indication is to judge delta T performance at different pumping rates and temperatures relative to comfort in space and ability to recover from setback, etc. So I kind of liked that the alpha has not only 3 speeds but 3 pressure differentials to choose from on override and that would allow me to estimate -- at least on a relative basis between the three options an approx. flow rate.

i embrace your flowmeters and balancing valve combo. i can't tell what the tech of your 669s are but nobody seems to sell them. Uponor has a similar unit but it only goes up to 2 GPM which if I prefer something that goes to 4 on a guess. if i'm trying to get a handle on what constitutes overpumping and i'm dealing with older systems that never really had that concern in mind I think i need to monitor rates higher than 2 GPM. and then I love the union connection but i'm not sure the tech on these is one that you really embrace for its accuracy either. and i haven't had anyone chime in on how to adapt these manifold unions to straight piping.

as you point out, since pumps like the alpha can do much of the balancing these days I can put an alpha per circuit for not a lot more than putting the balancing valve so I get balancing and pump and some readout and control strategy including automated algorithm and several manual overrides.

and just from an installation standpoint, ironically, the 132's are pipe thread, i'm sure to keep the heating of solder installation away from those o-rings. but that adds installation steps as well. of course if they last 'forever' then it is only a step taken one time and i know that is your attitude. difficult balance (sorry . . .) in terms of real cost, opportunity cost, accuracy and feature set that any of these approaches bring to a system.

brian

Gordy

Honestly like you said your only looking for the difference in the delta P. One gauge or,two the accuracy is in the gauge itself get a 0-30 psi gauge close enough for a run of the mill home based system. I used this method on my own one zone radiant system to double check the long hand calc, and was dead on. Ended up switching out the three piece B and G 100 HV for a PL 30. Puts me right in the middle 1/3 of the pl30 curve for the head for 60 less watts of power. The HV was in the upper 1/3 of the curve. Nothing changed with the delta T so both pumps were working the same except the PL 30 is a wet rotor, and uses 60 less watts.

That,being said I could not tell you what each of the 26 loops are doing gpm wise. I estimate .58 if you divide the 15 gpm for the system by the 26 loops. They are parallel piped. Each of the loops has varying deltas of between 8, and 12 degrees so alls good. But Its that techy in us that would love to have a flow meter everywhere we wonder.

hot_rod

Balancing valves are pretty much always threaded. They have typically been a commercial project component and most ME always spec balance valves to assure spot on performance. Threaded connections allows the most installation flexability.

Many large jobs require a balancing contractor dial in and certify the balance has been completed.

We feel the quicksetter will allow more residential installers an inexpensive means to balance and confirm flow rates. It's also becoming popular for large DHW recirc loop balancing so a low lead version is now available.

We do offer the 132 with press fittings if you can stand yet another o-ring or two

Another inexpensive way to measure heat output is with these snap on temperature gauges. Used with a manifold that has flowmeters, read the delta T, and with the known flow rate you can calculate heat delivered. Another means to balance or troubleshoot under performing systems.