Not venting enough?

agurkas

Still have hissing in the radiator vents. So I spent several hours in the basement trying to figure out what goes.

The goofy design is bit infuriating. So out of 3 mains, 1 is serving 5 rads and is totaling at something like 125 feet of 2" pipe, which shrinks sown to 1 1/4" on the return. That is not including something like ~39 feet of 1 1/4 "branches" to get to radiators.

Other two mains look like 50 feet max

It take close to 15-20 minutes for the top radiator in the furthest room of the house to get warm. I have B&J #134 steam trap on that big main. I thought darn thing is big enough? Do I need more venting power?

gerry gill

have the radiators been balanced?

nicholas bonham-carter

Is this one-pipe or two-pipe?
What is that big trap doing on the main?--NBC

Mark N

Is the boiler oversized? What size is the boiler and what is the EDR of the attached radiation? An oversized boiler can put more steam into the system than can be condensed and can cause hissing. I though you were looking to install Gorton #2's? After the main venting is made adequate the radiator venting needs to be balanced by their size.

Paul_11

Is all of your steam piping insulated at the boiler and on your overheads

agurkas

Oh boy... I have a feeling where this is going.
Have the radiators been balanced? No. 1st thing I did, when I moved in, was to replace all those rotten screwed together windows from WW2 era. Actually need to turn off one of the rads in the master bedroom (which also happens to be furthest away from the boiler). It takes time for the steam to get there, but when it does, it is like sauna. TRVs helped, but still. Other rooms seem OK.

It is single pipe system. I chose to replace Groton #2 with that big trap (one end is just open into basement), to get some more venting capacity at less $$$. So far one day with it and I think it has cut like 5 minutes from time it take furthest radiator to warm up on that big main.

Boiler is oversized. It is WGO-4. HVAC folks, who will be converting it to gas, calculated that it really should have been one section less (so WGO-3).

And no, not all piping is insulated. None of the elbows are insulated and the insulation on the pipes is the 1/2" fiberglass stuff Home Depot sells. And even that is crumbling in some places (nope, not asbestos).

Mark N

Is it a WGO or an SGO? The SGO is a steam boiler. They are probably the same boiler with different trim. I know nothing of venting mains with steam traps. I use 3 Gorton #1's on each of my mains as I have no head room for #2's. Is your contractor planning on converting the existing boiler to gas of installing a new properly sized gas boiler?

agurkas

Just converting the boiler. This one has another 15+ years of life in it. And yes, it is WGO, since the serial number is WGO-4 one.

Re. venting mains with steam traps, I got the idea fro JStar

Paul_11

I'm curious how you pipe a steam trap into a one pipe steam overhead main supply line.
I would think that this would convert your A dimension into a B dimension and cause the return water to back up more in your return lines.

When you say your are having an HVAC guy convert your oil boiler to gas, I hope you are using shorthand.
I have seen some serious shortcomings in the work when a good HVAC a guy does a boiler job.

Abracadabra

Paul, I think he's using the steam trap as a regular steam vent, with nothing connected to the outlet of the trap. Basically replacing a gorton #1 or #2 with the trap. I do that pretty often.

Paul_11

Abracadabra,
As the thread developed, I figured that out but thanks for stating it clearly. I appreciate that.

I never thought of that, but I would be worried about two things.

1) the trap will wear out and have to be replaced sooner than any GORTON #2 I've installed. Traps don't last more than five years or so and then where is your savings.
2) I can't afford to have any condensate water dropping onto the basement floor or the trap failing completely and have steam in the entire basement.

The price of a Gorton #2 does not concern me.

I have literally installed 1000's of Gorton 1 and 2 over the last 20 years and have had to go back and replace very few.

The ones in my apartment on the overhead are 20 years old.

agurkas

How many Gorton #2 does a B&J #134 equal to?

Abracadabra

B&J #134A is 2.88 cfm @ 3oz.
Gorton #2 is 2.2 cfm @ 3oz.

agurkas

Sorry still learning. 3oz is something like 0.19PSI?
So follow question 1: if I got vaporstat, what would be cut in and cut out in oz (since all of them seem to be in oz)? Right now I have Honewell pressuretrol

Follow question #2: not sure if you calculate branches of the rads into mains, but since I have about 75 feet of 2" mains, which then reduce to 1 1/4" for the remaining 50 feet in the loop and there about 39 feet of 1 1/4" branches to the rads, how much CFM capacity at 3oz do I need to vent out?

agurkas

So I really should be set with venting. What is weird is that even with B&J #134, I can definitely hear air escaping for about 3-4 minutes at least. It gets hot from steam probably around minute 5 or so.

Don_197

Your pressure is too high.........slows things WAY down.

Don_197

The way I like it explained is to imagine a turnstile in a subway station.......with lower pressure, people can quicky pas single file through the turnstile, for every 1/8th psi above 1psi, imagine two at a time going through......then three.....then four........

agurkas

Ugh... so pressuretrol is probably toast and/or the pigtail to it is clogged. I have turned down the cut in to the point where it can't go any lower. Probably time to bite the bullet and buy vaporstat.

Don_197

Do you have a working pressure gauge? It may not be toast......2 psi max..........most systems work great on as little as 8oz (.5psi)

agurkas

Don said:

Your pressure is too high.........slows things WAY down.

Probably the case. My Nest tells me how long it will take to get to the temperature. 2 degree increase in the house take about 30 minutes. That is too long.

agurkas

Don said:

Do you have a working pressure gauge? It may not be toast......2 psi max..........most systems work great on as little as 8oz (.5psi)

I have it set all the way at the bottom (0.5PSI) with 1PSI diff. It was set 1PSI higher, when I bought the house.

That all said, ordered a low pressure gauge. Should fit instead for 30PSI one there. Will hold off on vaporstat.

If I understand all the things correctly, basically low cut-in just keeps the boiler from turning on too much to keep the water unnecessarily hot (hence the lower pressure in the system)?

Mark N

My system works perfectly fine at 1 oz pressure. My boiler puts out 271 sq.ft of steam and the EDR of my rads is 260 sq.ft. I have a presssuretrol, no need for a vaporstat. My pressure is always low because my boiler is well matched to my system. I use a Honeywell FocusPro 5000 t-stat set to 1CPH. It stays set to 70 from November to April. How long do you think the boiler should run to raise the temp 2 degrees? You do know that no space heating is actually happening until the steam starts to condense in the rads. Also, your rads will continue to give off heat long after the boiler is off. How long does it take to get steam to your rads? When maintaining temp your boiler should run about 20 minutes give or take a few minutes. You say it takes 30 minutes to raise the temp 2 degrees. Are you turning up the t-stat for this or does your Nest raise the temp 2 degrees when just maintaining temp?

agurkas

My boiler is oversized, so there is that.
Nest basically tells you how much time on average it took to get the room to a temperature you set it to. So it will say that going from 66 to 68 will take X minutes. I have it only run when we are home in the evening (so 68F) and then at night I let the temp drop to 64F, and in the morning I have it turn on hour prior to us waking up back to 68F. Then it is off whole day.
Trying to make the 3/8ths of the tank last for the next 6 weeks, until conversion to gas is done. Really don't want to pay for more oil just to get it pumped out for removal.

Mark N

Understood, after your conversion to gas and then it is tuned to you connected load it will operate much better. Understand this though, after your conversion steam operates best when left at 1 temp or at most a small set back of say 2 degrees. The Nest has some neat features but it is a very expensive thermostat for a steam system where a $30 one would be just as effective.

Abracadabra

agurkas said:

Don said:

Do you have a working pressure gauge? It may not be toast......2 psi max..........most systems work great on as little as 8oz (.5psi)

I have it set all the way at the bottom (0.5PSI) with 1PSI diff. It was set 1PSI higher, when I bought the house.

Can you take a pic of the dials/setting on the pressuretrol? I have found that when a pressuretrol is set to it's absolute minimum, it's really not as accurate.

BobC

If all you have is the normal 30 PSI gauge you really have no idea of what your pressure is. You should consider installing a low pressure gauge so you know exactly what your pressure is, just make sure it's on a pigtail so it does not see steam.

Bob

agurkas

Mark N said:

Understand this though, after your conversion steam operates best when left at 1 temp or at most a small set back of say 2 degrees. The Nest has some neat features but it is a very expensive thermostat for a steam system where a $30 one would be just as effective.

Re. Nest, company I co-founded writes commercial building automation software. So my own house is kind of full of gadgets, so I can test them. I like to be able to reduce or increase temperature remotely. Wifey has interesting "body thermometer". Sometimes 68F is fine, but sometimes she gets back home earlier and just has to have 72F (I am not spending $$$ on 72F constant temps).

agurkas

Don said:

Can you take a pic of the dials/setting on the pressuretrol? I have found that when a pressuretrol is set to it's absolute minimum, it's really not as accurate.

Here are fresh pics of the settings I have. Yes, I lowered the temp a tad for the IWH. Water heater is set to 120F (we are never using 60 gallons in a day, so it is fine), so I figured I will lower temp on the boiler by 10 degrees.

SWEI

Wife's "body thermometer" may simply be responding to MRT, which takes a big hit from setbacks.

Abracadabra

I must have missed it earlier if you mentioned it, but you are using this boiler to provide domestic hot water in addition to steam?

agurkas

Abracadabra said:

I must have missed it earlier if you mentioned it, but you are using this boiler to provide domestic hot water in addition to steam?

Yes, there is a 60 gallon indirect water heater attached to the boiler.

Abracadabra

Has that load been taken into account when sizing the boiler?

Install the vapor gauge and get back with readings when the boiler is running and at the end of it's cycle.

agurkas

Even with IWH, it is still oversized, according to every HVAC contractor that has been to the house. System was put together assuming no insulation (which actually was the case at the time)

RobG

You mentioned replacing the (useless) 30# gauge with a 2# gauge, the 30# is required by code so you should get some a tee and split off the pigtail and use both gauges.

agurkas

RobG said:

You mentioned replacing the (useless) 30# gauge with a 2# gauge, the 30# is required by code so you should get some a tee and split off the pigtail and use both gauges.

Yeah I saw mentions of that around here. So I am going to be getting brass bits to do that.

Emeliza

Just so you know, my oil delivery man said that I can use diesel in a pinch, like when I forget to order oil and I run out and my delivery day isn't for a couple of days--happened more than once last year, as I am in the habit of floating with the market and ordering a hundred gallons at a time. You just have to use the yellow fuel can dedicated to diesel and if you want to save paying the road tax, buy off-road diesel. That might help you stretch it out for another 6 weeks until you can get converted to gas. Also, since it isn't cold right now (was over 65 today in VT) conserve the oil by shutting the boiler off until the evening when it gets chilly.

vaporvac

Yeah I saw mentions of that around here. So I am going to be getting brass bits to do that.

You may have already thought of this, but adding a couple of brass unions really makes it easy to remove the gauges when you have to clean the pigtail or blowdown the boiler (if you have a vstat). I had to look around for them, but went crazy putting them in all possible locations and am glad I did. Colleen

agurkas

Emeliza said:

Just so you know, my oil delivery man said that I can use diesel in a pinch, like when I forget to order oil and I run out and my delivery day isn't for a couple of day<...> You just have to use the yellow fuel can dedicated to diesel

Funny you would mention yellow cans. I have three of them in a garage from previous owner and six red ones. Wonder how I test for diesel.

Really wish I could use for the furnace like 10 gallons of old gasoline for mower. Those cans were left behind by previous owner too and I don't know how to dispose of old gas, because it sure is not going into my cars.

agurkas

I am frugal, not cheap :-) Not going to blow up the house.
Just going to dump those cans into the tank, before crew comes to remove the oil tanks. Sludge is sludge.

BobC

Check with your town, many have programs that allow you to dispose of materials like old gas and oil. It may cost you a few $$ but it's worth knowing it's being handled properly.

Bob

gennady

Clock the meter and check actual btu input. Your boiler might be overfired. Then you can downfire to actual btu needed for the house. It can cut amount of steam produced and help with your problem.