Is this possible... modify a steam riser in-place? Advice?

SwedishPimple

Hi Experts-

I've got a bit of a problem spot with one of my 1" steam risers.

The 1" riser in question feeds two radiators, one on the second floor and then another in the attic. Ideally each radiator would have it's own riser or at the very least be larger, but I am trying to avoid a major tear out of lath and plaster walls and ceilings. To complicate matters further, the 1" riser coming up from the basement is wrapped in asbestos.

The problem area I've identified is on the second floor, in the spot where the riser supplies the radiator on that floor and then turns two 90's up towards the attic. This spot has about 1 feet of pipe which I am unable to pitch correctly (the house has settled). This lack of pitch and the abrupt turn seems to be causing slow heating in the attic and banging on condensate return.

Long story short, I'd like to remove the 90's in this spot and put in place a couple of 45's. I am hoping that this will help my issues by giving me some much needed pitch for my condensate return. *note - the piping from the second floor to the attic is not wrapped in asbestos

See attached diagram for more info.



Anyway... That is my issue.

Now my question...

If I expose this 1" pipe in the wall of the second floor... will it be possible to connect to this pipe and put my 45's in place?

If so... what would be the best approach for executing my plan? Advice?

I've got access to lots of tools (reciprocating saw, grinder, ratcheting pipe threader... just not a whole lot of experience working with iron pipe.

I may need to call a pro, but I'd like to know what my options are here.

Thanks much!
S.P.

SwedishPimple

Here is a picture of the problem area.

I'm just looking for advice... and maybe some piping suggestions. I think the taking that abrupt 90 degree angle out by adding 45's will help with my issues, but I am certainly open to other ideas.

Fred

I'm not sure you are going to solve your problem with 45s. That 1" pipe is just too small to feed steam to both of those rads and also leave room for condensate to return to the boiler. Are you sure you can't disconnect the third floor rad at that elbow and drop the pipe for the third floor rad along side the pipe for the second floor rad, to the basement and connect it somewhere on the main or at least off of a feed that might be at least 1.5" or 2"? You can then just put a plug or cap on the Tee or, better yet, install a proper valve there on the second floor.

SwedishPimple

Hi Fred - Thanks for your idea of trying to drop a new pipe down from that spot. Ultimately, adding a new riser might be the best solution and if it comes to this, I may try this approach.

My reservations are that I'm trying avoid dealing with the logistics and/or expense of opening walls, drilling sill plates, and attaching to the asbestos wrapped main.

In other words, I'm trying to make what I've got work without resorting to a total redo.

The radiator on the 2nd floor is in a very small room. It is a replacement radiator that is way too large for the space and certainly too large given the piping size. So my thoughts are that if I can just get the puddle out of that awkward 90 and then downsize that radiator I can make things work better.

S.P.

j a_2

You sure thats not 1 1/4 pipe….Could be my eyes but it looks like it to me….I did not see in your post if you said they did work normal before…No matter what you must fix the pitch you mention….Hows the venting?

Paul_11

Before you install a new riser do the math again.

Those 80 and 60 EDR rads are very large.
Are you sure they are that big and do you need them that big especially in the attic?
Do you have a master vent on the riser in the attic?
Please install a Gorton #2 if you don't.

if you go ahead with your repipe, I would suggest that you don't use 45.
Use four 90 degree elbows with a double elbow turn at both ends.
This will allow the section of riser to the third floor to move without creating bellies
The radiator will most likely not be moving so the upper riser enlarges upward and the lower riser enlarges downward when heated up.
Think coefficient of expansion of steel, and consider that radiator an unmoveable object.

Bio

I'm just a home owner, first you'll have to make sure the boiler and the mains can handle the extra radiator, second a 11/4 pipe riser can handle 55 sqft EDR and 1" pipe 25 sqft EDR that said don't expect to fully heat those rads, I would put small vents to some what equally heat them but not fully, good luck

SwedishPimple

Thanks for the replies all... here are my answers.

@ja - yes. This is a 1" pipe. I've got plenty of venting on the mains. This configuration has never worked well for me. I do get heat, but I can hear sloshing in that 90 and it bangs once the attic radiator dumps it's condensate.

@Paul The 2nd floor radiator is way too large for it's space. Also, now that you mention it, the attic is a sauna once that radiator fully heats. I think my EDR estimates are close. I have plans to install a TRV for one-pipe in the attic. And swap the 2nd floor radiator for a much smaller one. Also, I don't have a riser vent... is that an issue?

@Bio Where did you get that EDR info? ..thanks for sharing that info. Following those number, this setup should have never worked. Maybe the attic was an add-on at some point? That would explain the undersized and funky piping. I can get heat... it just takes a while and occasionally comes with bit of noise.

S.P.

ProblemSolver

I like the riser pipe in the attic with a main vent, idea. The steam will travel faster to that vent, then the radiator's vent will do the rest. The swing joints are also a good idea, but raise the radiator in the attic on some blocks (1" or-so); that should give you your pitch allowing the condensate to return during the off cycle. You could also put an adjustable vent on the 2nd floor radiator to govern how much steam enters that radiator, instead of replacing it which would allow more of the steam to make it to the attic.

Paul_11

Swedish pimple,
When you master vent a building that has one pipe steam, you vent the overhead mains in the basement and you vent the tops of all steam risers. You do this always.
The longer it takes for the steam get to and to make that radiator on the top floor hot, the more condensate you make in that riser and the more gurgling you have.

Since that 1" riser is undersized, you need everything to work perfectly on that riser to have a chance of it working quietly.

I would not repipe it yet.
Nor would I replace either radiator unless you wanted the space back.

HERE IS WHAT I WOULD DO FIRST

1) I would install a gorton#2 in the attic on the riser, but before the radiator control valve for sure.

2) I would install a DANFOSS TRV on both the second floor and third floor radiator. Thus effectively makes the radiator smaller.

Then I would step back and wait and see.

Steam can be forgiving even when the charts say it can't work, but everything else has to be perfect.
So be nice to the steam and it might be nice to you

Paul

icesailor

I'm not a Steam Pro in any way.

I've spent my life working in old cribs like yours. Trust me. The radiator in the attic was installed after the initial installation or the building of the house.

The old dead guys would have run it 1 1/4" or run a separate 1" line. That long offset and the uninsulated riser to the third floor is a dead giveaway. Was the attic finished at a later date? You can usually tell by the architectural details in the wood work.

The fact that the radiator in place is up on blocks, the fact that the original baseboard BEHIND the radiator has a patch in it and the baseboard to the right is different, and the wood lath has a square cut out by a keyhole saw is a dead give away.

What appears to be settling is probably a bad installation when they replaced the radiator and they couldn't get that Tee that replaced the ell going in to the radiator. If you have other old radiators still in place in other parts of the house, measure from the finish floor to the centerline of the line going into the radiators. Measure the one upstairs. If they are the same, it shows that the replacement radiator inlet was much lower than the original radiator. Hence. the blocks to get it up.

There's more to your issue than you see or understand. You should try to find someone that understands old house issues. But, good luck with that. There's no profit in it.