Lochinvar FTXL - Nice.

JohnNY

This baby is going in today.
850 MBH in a 6 sq. ft. footprint.

97% efficiency

160 psi working pressure

10:1 turndown

Wireless outdoor sensor

Great internet enabled control

Good stuff.

RobG

Sweet! I love the wireless outdoor sensor concept and 10-1 turndown. I wish they would come up with 10-1 turndown for residential units. What's the application? Be sure and post some photos of the finished job.

Rob

Bob Bona_4

Even the model number sounds sexy.

JohnNY

Thanks, guys.
It's a 15-unit multi-family building. I took out a Caravan modular setup because the chimney was falling apart and could only draw the flue of a single 400 mbh boiler.
I'm into this thing but wish I'd had more time to pretty-up the boiler room.
I'll post more as the job progresses .The 6 stories of stainless steel flue went in today.

NYplumber

Why not two smaller knights for redundancy and higher dewpoint at the lower turndown ratios?
Also why stainless steel and not poly? (My guess is rodent will eat the poly?!)

JohnNY

I have time and space constraints in this tiny boiler room that I can't even photograph with a 12mm lens and I didn't want to get involved in the piping of twin boilers. At 10:1 turndown, I'll call the single boiler a win. And I prefer stainless steel to plastic (poly) flues whenever the budget allows. I feel it's a permanent material that will always be code compliant and look better to some clients.

NYplumber

Agreed on the stainless steel John.
What will be your plan for when issues arise and replacement parts are not available for a day or so? I am responsible for a few large spa jobs and schools across NY and NJ. Having a second boiler saved my hide.

JohnNY

My plan is the same as everyone else's who has one boiler in their building: maintain it properly, test regularly, anticipate failures, and keep my fingers crossed.
I agree, when budgets allow, in redundancy as well.

JohnNY

For what it's worth, here's what we took out last week (flue removed).
How's that boiler on the left look? The last heating contractor's solution was to add a draft inducer. That didn't do it.

RobG

I can see that the owners believe in regular maintenance . I hope that they have service contract with you. Are you keeping the water heater or putting in an indirect or a Turbomax?

JohnNY

As part of our regular installation contracts they'll get the first year's maintenance free and then we'll propose a contract for going forward.
We're installing a Squire indirect water heater with this boiler.

RobG

That's nice that they have the separate water heaters so that you at least have a little time to pipe the system before you tie in the indirect. What size indirect and pump are you using for a fifteen unit building? I assume it's fifteen baths? It should clean up the boiler room rather nicely (although it's hard to polish a turd)

I wonder if they will be willing to pay for future maintenance or if they'll just let it run into the ground as they did the last system?

Rob

SWEI

Same policy here -- one year of full support including a CA and tune-up on the anniversary. Depending on what we find at that point, we propose either annual or biannual checkups. New systems with NG-fired FT boilers seem quite happy on two-year intervals.

NYplumber

Off topic; Are you guys opening up the FT boilers and cleaning out the hx like whats supposed to be done on the giannoni?

SWEI

Not unless something goes very, very wrong. Just about to hit the five year mark on the first ones we installed, not sure exactly what we plan to do on those. TT is planning a teardown class on the original Prestige units soon. We will attend and I am interested to see what they recommend. Every install we have been involved with had beaucoups Webstone parts and can easily be flushed six ways from Sunday, so I remain (moderately) optimistic.

NYplumber

Same here, no internal maintenance on the fireside unless a job called for it. Have seen some giannonis go seven years without being touched. But when it broke they called me for yearly service.

But never again will I install a single high efficiency without the client signing that they refuse a redundant source of heat and dhw. Too many crazy issues as of late.

JohnNY

Don't you love this graphic on the FTXL?

SWEI

Cute...

Steve_210

Just another word on poly propylene venting I don't seem to see anybody post about it here
On page 20 of the knight manual it states when using ridgid poly propylene you must multiply by 1.6
This will greatly reduce allowed vent length on those five and six story buildings
Not unless you can increase the pipe size on at least part of the vent, and even then you would need approval for the manufacturer.
My understanding is the ID of the poly propylene is slightly smaller

Paul_11

I use the fasnseal ss liner as it not have the 1.6 issue.
It is 1 to 1 which allows me to get to the roof with not problem.
I put the liner inside the old chimney, brick or metal.
I also use the old chimney for fresh air which is a very cool option Lochinvar allows.
It saves a lot of time installing the fresh air for combustion and allows me to not have to put PVC piping into an owners back yard which they never like.

Steve_210

Great information Paul thanks so much for sharing

Steve_210

Just to clarify make up air is not piped to the boiler it is taken from the room air which is drawn down the existing chimney

RobG

SWEI said:

Same policy here -- one year of full support including a CA and tune-up on the anniversary. Depending on what we find at that point, we propose either annual or biannual checkups. New systems with NG-fired FT boilers seem quite happy on two-year intervals.

When you say biannual do you mean twice a year or every two years? Bi and semi are very ambiguous words. I would assume you mean every two years.

Straight from Wiki: To avoid confusion, it may be best to avoid this word, since its intent is unclear. Semiannual can be used to mean "every six months", and biennial to mean "every two years".

Rob

SWEI

Every other year, based on what the first annual evaluation looks like.

Jeff W_2

Looks good...we just fired up two FTXL400's in an apartment building today and used the polypro. To do the stainless Lochinvar requires Precision to custom design and approve the venting plan. Did you go through that John? How was it? These are pretty sweet boilers.

JohnNY

No. We used a chimney company that used poly pipe. What do you mean when you say "Precision to custom design..."?

RobG

John,
http://www.precisionvent.com/

Jeff W_2

Sorry John, I though you said you installed 6 stories of SS vent, not PP

JohnNY

I actually did. We got an approval to go from poly in the boiler room to stainless for our vertical flue, but that just came from the rep. No one asked for input from Precision. Interesting.

Jeff W_2

That is interesting. I called Lochinvar for our job, and they said they couldn't even tell me the proper size to run. Maybe it was because I asked about having both (2) boilers connect into a single SS liner- which is allowed on this system. Maybe if you do individual liners for each boiler it is not a requirement to have Precision design the system.

tim smith

Anyone know if Lochinvar is buying the heatx for the ftxl or are they making themselves?

Jeff W_2

I hear they are buying the HX now, but are in the process of getting the capability and equipment to make it themselves in factory.

tim smith

John, are you all not running into the problem of Squire/superstor/etc etc indirects not being asme when tied to a boiler over 200,000 btus. Our Seattle boiler code does not allow an indirect that does not have a asme cert stamp to be connected to a boiler/boilers over 200,000 combined rating. This is out of the asme code at an interpretation as I see it.

JohnNY

I've never heard that, but I've had experiences that could easily explain that code. Interesting.

SWEI

Search for "unfired pressure vessel" in your state's code. Different states have different limits (typically 200k or 400k, but there may be others.)

Steve_210

I am curious how you managed to get approval from the Manufactors to use two different venting materials.
The reason I ask I called technical on a similar situation and I was given a flat out no

JohnNY

It wasn't so much an "approval" as it was a verbal description as to what the chimney installer's intentions were, met with no objections.
There are one of two UL listings that both venting materials carry and that seems all they were concerned with.
It was far from an in-depth conversation.

Steve_210

I hope I'm not beating this to death, but do all manufactures have 1.6 rule when it comes to polypropylene