Steam boiler flue pipe outlet

jch1

First off, thanks for all the useful insights provided here. We just purchased a house in May that has a 28 year-old WM steam boiler (275k BTU) which has a few minor problems (bad feeder, wrong pressure valve installed, some leaks in one of the lower pipes that connects to a drain, etc.). The flue pipe for our boiler connects to the flue pipe for our water heater and then reduces to 5 inches, hits an inducer fan, and exits to the chimney via a chimney liner, also five inches. The chimney is located in the middle of the house, not on an outer wall. Here's where we have bigger problems. First, the "Y" pipe was installed backwards, so the exhaust from the boiler is directed to the water heater exhaust before going out to the chimney. We'll need to get that reconfigured before heating season.

Next is the size of the liner- we've been told that the five inch liner simply is not large enough for a combined system upwards of 300k btus. We've had multiple companies tell us this and provide charts illustrating the same, so I am inclined to believe this. We have a few options for repairs of the system:
1) Generally service the boiler, which may or may not be on its last legs, and vent the flue pipe for the boiler so that it exits the side of the house. Two companies have told us this is possible with steam boilers, while four or five have immediately said it couldn't be done.

2) Install a new boiler (Burnham IN6, WM model (can't recall the number), and similarly vent it out a side wall.

3) Install a new boiler, replace the existing liner with a 7 or 8 inch liner. My concern here is that a larger liner may not even fit, and we won't really know until we pull the existing one. One of the repairmen let me use his mirror to look up the chimney via an access panel, and the liner was definitely touching two opposing sides, but there were gaps in the other direction. I don't want them to pull the liner, tell me "we can't fit this larger one in here," and I have limited options at this point.

Basically what I want to know is whether it's possible to vent a single boiler out the side of my house. I understand I may need additional components to do so, which is fine, so long as there aren't any other safety concerns I need to be aware of. The two companies that told me I can vent out the side of the house seem to be the most trustworthy, for what it's worth.

Thanks!

jch1

Looks like I should have dug a bit deeper. The Burnham IN6 is designed specifically for power venting, so I suppose that shouldn't be problematic then. Does anybody have experience with these boilers?

jch1

I answered my own question. We just had somebody else come out and gave us a great price on a Bryant steam boiler, but told us they would install any brand we wanted at little, if no, additional cost. Do you fine folks have any recommendations? Mind you, we have taken all of the requisite measurements. I'm just looking for brand preferences. I've heard good things about Burnham and Peerless, and decent things about WM.

Bob Bona_4

How's about getting rid of the water heater and going with a hot water loop off the steam boiler to drive an indirect fired water heater. That will drop your input btu calcs for a liner. Are you sure of the sizing so the new boiler isn't too big as well? Got the EDR of your rads?

Bio

What's your EDR ?

jch1

I should have mentioned that yes, our current WM boiler is badly oversized. I don't have the EDR available, but everybody who has sized our system landed on 175k-200k boilers. Obviously this will reduce the total output to 240k at the high end.

Had we not purchased the water heater months ago (again, new, first-time homeowners that didn't realize the old water heater was on its last legs), I'd be inclined to consider an indirect heater. Any way an existing water heater can be retrofitted/modified?

Any recommendations on brands? It looks like Bryants are rebadged Dunkirks, which may or may not have issues, but they certainly have a good warranty.

jch1

I'll see if I can find the EDR when I get home later tonight. Sorry about not having it available.

Bob Bona_4

Tough spot. No, a typical gas wh can't be made into an indirect. If the contractors measured up the rads and assigned an EDR to each that is a step in the right direction. Partial to Burnham here.

JStar

How tall is the chimney with the 5" liner?

BobC

Did they just count the number of radiators and then guess at the ratings or did they do radiator survey? Make a list of your radiators (height, width, depth, number of columns deep , number of columns wide). from that information the EDR of each radiator can be calculated. At that point you will know what size boiler to have installed.

Most steam boilers are pretty much the same, the key is the skill of the installer. A three pass boiler would be best but they do cost more money.

Bob

jch1

The three companies that did measurements actually took measurements of the number of columns, depth, width, etc. I'm going to have to call the guys tomorrow to find out the EDR calculations though.

The chimney liner is at least 4' (basement) + 8' (1st floor) +8' (2nd floor) + 15' (attic- extremely steep pitched roof) + another 3-5' outside, so it's closer to 40 feet total.

I found a few calculators online, and assuming I do need a 175k btu boiler, combined with the water heater, I'd be outputting 215k btu. With a run of 35-40 feet, some calculators are actually showing a 6" liner to be sufficient. I've got a chimney company coming in to give me an expert's opinion, and I hope they tell me I can simply put a larger liner in or do some minor tuck pointing and not use a liner at all.

With that, assuming I can avoid using a power venting system, any brand recommendations? I've got one positive nod for the Burnham.

JStar

Do you have any pictures of the venting setup? With a inducer/power fan, a 5" liner will be adequate. Without one, a 6" liner will be necessary.

I like PEERLESS. We've had bad experiences with almost every other brand.

jch1

Here are the best pictures I could manage. Let me know if you need other angles. From the picture I took below the venting, you can see that the boiler's flue pipe goes towards the water heater first. When we had the boiler running, we could feel gases escaping from the water heater's outlet.

I took a few more shots I'll upload when I get to my office in a bit.

jch1

One of the guys just called me back to tell me that the radiators came out to 352 sq feet.

KC_Jones

If that is your EDR number then you really only need a Burnham IN5 not the IN6. The IN5 is rated for 358 sq ft or if they are quoting WM that would size out to an EG-45 rated for 392 sq ft the EG-40 drops to 325 sq ft which is technically too small. You are right you are massively over sized by 100% or so.

Bob Bona_4

Rads are alledgedly 352 sq ft. Plus your pick up factor which isn't clear if they accounted for that.. How well are the steam mains and branches insulated?

KC_Jones

Bob Bona said:

Rads are alledgedly 352 sq ft. Plus your pick up factor which isn't clear if they accounted for that.. How well are the steam mains and branches insulated?

Pick up factor of 1.33 is included in the boiler ratings already and doesn't need to be added in. Measure the rads and compare that to the boiler rating specs. A Burnham IN5 has a gross rating of 140k BTU multiply that by the efficiency of 82% gives 115k gross output then divide that by 1.33 for the pickup and you get 86k rating for steam which is what they list. If you divide that by 240 btu per sqft of radiation you get 358 sq ft that it can support. If you add pick up factor into the radiator measurements you will be adding it twice and over size the boiler. If it was me I would measure the rads myself to double check what the contractors are saying. If you are indeed at 352 this could possibly help your chimney situation a bit since the requirement for that size boiler would be 6" not the huge thing you have now. I am sure the pros will comment on that though.

jch1

There is some minimal insulation on the unfinished side of the basement, but on the finished half, the pipes are not insulated so as to provide heat for the basement.

And I agree, having a more appropriately sized boiler will certainly reduce the need for such a large liner, so I am leaning towards pursuing that route.

Bob Bona_4

Some boiler mfrs have a factor built into their cut sheets, some don't. Have to read the fine print.

Grabbing heat from uninsulated steam pipes that ought to be insulated means the original system suffers. 1.33 may be shy....

jch1

Perhaps that's why they sized the boiler as such? We don't have any radiators at all in the basement, so insulating the pipes would be a cold idea.

Bob Bona_4

Might be pushing a 1.5 P/U factor depending onhow much bare steel is there. Remember, it's a race to get the steam to the rads before condensation.

jch1

There's 20 feet of piping that is in the unfinished part that could be insulated, but another 30-45 feet or so worth of pipe that needs to remain exposed to heat the finished portion. Unless they can drop a radiator from the pipe (at the ceiling), I'm not sure what my options are there.

So I hope I'm not breaking rules, but I was told that I could upgrade to a peerless boiler (awaiting model number) for an additional 5%, and to a WM boiler for a couple hundred more than the Peerless upgrade. He did not mention Burnham on the quote. The Bryant model is BS2AAN000187. Does anybody have an opinion on Bryant boilers? They do have a great warranty, but I want to make sure that I'm going with the most reputable brand at a reasonable cost here.

Steamhead

The Bryant is a re-branded Dunkirk. These are extremely sensitive to poor near-boiler piping. If I were doing that job and had to use an atmospheric type of gas boiler, I'd use W-M or Peerless.

Bob Bona_4

Agree with Steamhead. The best option for heating the basement from the boiler is taking a hot water loop from the condensate and making a zone there. Having uninsulated piping is a badthing because it sets up other problems.

jch1

How would you do that with the pipe being a supply pipe for the rads on the first floor, thus is up by the ceiling? Also, not sure if it being a single pipe system makes any difference.

Bob Bona_4

Hot water condensate heating uses the water in the boiler to make a loop. The steam piping isn't touched. Somewhere on Dan's site here, there isinfo on that.

SWEI

Try this.

Turns out the new site is actually easier to navigate.

jch1

Thanks. I'll look into it. Can these systems be added retroactively?

Bob Bona_4

Yes they can.

jch1

Thanks guys. So the fact that the Bryant is being offered with a 10 year all parts, and for an additional $200, 10 year labor warranty wouldn't tempt anyone to go in that direction?

BobC

I'm just a homeowner but boilers are usually pretty reliable IF THEY ARE PROPERLY CONFIGURED and you don't have a water chemistry problem.

My old boiler was a Burnham v75 and those castings had problems but that boiler only needed a repair once in 16 years - not counting the yearly cleanout and tuning. I would not buy a boiler based on it's warranty.

Bob

jch1

Thanks Bob. Anybody else have any thoughts?

Bio

Home owner here also, looks like you've got some good advice, why not going to the "find a contractor" link and get a Pro that can give you an honest opinion, where are you located? (this is how I got my steam system installed right)

jch1

I'm in a suburb of Chicago. I only came up with two contractors in a 50 mile radius from me, one of which doesn't do steam boilers, and the other was so busy, he did not seem very willing to even come take a look at my system. I'm in a bit of a bind because I think I know who I want to go with, provided they agree that their suggestion for the size of the boiler seems pretty far off.

Bio

Did you try http://www.thesteamwhisperer.net/index.shtml, you can not go wrong with him, here is an article he wrote: https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/taking-another-look-at-steam-boiler-sizing-methods/, good luck

jch1

I did. Unfortunately, his schedule doesn't seem to permit him to look at my system currently.