What do you see wrong with this set up?

Ross_24

This is a system with some fairly classic mistakes, but I want to get the smart minds of this forum to help explain the shortcomings even better. What do you see wrong with this set up?

icesailor

Something Specific?

Is there something specific you think is wrong with it?



In my minority opinion, other than that wrong and bogus circulator gasket on the boiler side, a lack of specific air elimination, if the pressure is maintained high enough (properly), it should be working fine. The boiler came with a 1 1/2 flange on the supply which looks like they changed the circulator recently. They didn't change the old one. The new flange is one of those nice new Taco ones with the shoulder you can get a wrench on. Not the cheap Chinese one that the Wholesaler I traded with used to stock. SO, when I needed flanges, I bought the good ones somewhere else.

Until I switched to Wilo because they have this big fat, wide wound O-Ring type gasket and you can't use the bogus red rubber leaking ones on Wilo's.

icesailor

Fill Valve Locations:

This issue comes up often here. Correct location for the fill valve.

This boiler is being filed into the top of the boiler where some install a float vent, of if you are using a compression type tank, it is supposed to be connected here.



My old dead boss was nuts about connecting cold water feeds to the bottom of boilers. Something about dumping cold water into the top of a hot boiler.

That brand of fill valve was notorious (for me) of sticking and not filling when needed. The PDF of the Weil-McLain installation manual says to install the fill on the cold or return side of the boiler when using diaphragm tanks. Like used in this photo of the questioned boiler. Fed between the boiler return and a stop on the return to make for easy purging. If it is a question, I wouldn't feed the boiler at the top where an air elimination device belongs,



Page 19 of this PDF.



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/wgo_boiler_manual.pdf

ChrisJ

Tanks

The expansion tanks are on the wrong side of the pump.

Ross_24

I agree

Do you think pumping into the expansion here is an ok practice?

Ross_24

Good eye

Yes changing the exp tank position is certainly on the list.

Paul48

Can't make it out

Is there a backflow preventer?

Eric_32

Here's another....

how about setting up the purge stations so they won't drip on anything electrical.

icesailor

Diaphragm Tank Locations:

Having ridden with Noah on the boat, I never knew it was such an issue about the tank location when we went from captive air expansion tanks to diaphragm tanks. We just put them where they were shown in the instructions. There was no world wide pandemic of no water pumping diseases because of the location of the pumps. More than once, I found failed bladder thanks that needed to be replaced. I got another one along with a new 30# relief valve and low and behold, the person before me had used a 24" pair of channel locks to screw the tank into the air purge fitting. My standard 12" channel locks didn't have the nuts to untwist what had been applied with a 2' wrench. So, being the end of the day, and not wanting to get grief from the one at home for being late (again) for dinner, I connected a boiler drain to the Extrol and a double hose washing machine connection, connected to the boiler drain on the bottom of the boiler or any other available and convenient place and turned it all on. Giving the pressure a place to go until I could get back. The planets didn't mis-align and the world didn't end. It worked just fine.

Give it a KISS. (Keep It Simple, but don't be Stupid)

ChrisJ

Pumping away

Ice,



If you don't already have it I highly recommend this book. It explains why the tank should be before the pump.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Hot-Water-Heating-Books/26/100/Pumping-Away-and-other-really-cool-piping-options-for-hydronic-systems

icesailor

Books:

Chris:

I know full well all the scientific reasons for putting circulators and pressure tanks where they are. There is no gap in my knowledge. I can quote you chapter and verse. In my experience, of looking at and working on many systems, over many years, it doesn't mean squat. I've seen them installed about every which way and they all worked. Any system I saw that wasn't working, had other issues to be addressed. Mostly a lack of pressure. IMO, Hydronic FHW systems are almost bomb proof. Judging by some of the amateur plumbing Picasso's I've seen. And they work.

Lets go back to basics.

It doesn't work.

How long did it work?

50 years.

When did it stop working?

Last week.

You need to move the circulators and expansion tank to a new location and install the latest air scrubber.

REALLY? It worked fine for 50 years. Did you check the system pressure?

Reads zero? Pump it up and it works fine. If you did all the suggested work, you would have filled the boiler to the proper pressure and you'd be a genius for making a 50 YO system work. When all it needed was more pressure and an new fill valve.

There's a WGO boiler here on The Wall with the circulator on the supply outlet. It has been replaced with a 007. The original black flange is still in place. With an improper circulator gasket in plain sight. Ones that will leak when the hot water starts evaporating between surfaces and the red rubber dries out to tar road hardness. Safe money says that the installer went out to the truck and got two 1 1/2 red rubber flange gaskets, threw  away the black square cut O-rings that the manufacturers supplied to be used, and went away after doing a fine thing. That bottom flange gasket on the original black circulator leaked so badly that it stained the black paint rust. The Wholesaler I bought 99% of my supplies from only stocked 1 1/2" red rubber gaskets. If I wanted spare black rubber O-Rings, I had to special order them. They had red ones in bags of 12. Then, there were all those Crane and National Boat mooring boilers with the pre-packaged circulator on the front/supply.  Series 100 B&G's. How many did I change because the water seal went from evaporating water getting past the ceramic seal face? Too many. We and I  put the circulators on the return with the cooler return water, and the leaking seal/replacement issue magically stopped. I know all about PONC's and PONP's. So many of the systems I see today are over thought, over designed, over installed and OVER PUMPED because you need to have high pressures to drive water through undersized pipes.

I don't do it anymore. I just sit and remember all the potential kindergarten Picasso's I looked at that had serious unresolvable issues.

Don't get me going. I'll start in on perfectly designed, engineered and installed hydronic systems that worked fine for years. With giant mistakes that no one ever found until I came along and found that every bridge loop was reversed so you could never get the hottest water in the loops. All with Taco 112 High head, high flow 3 piece circulators.

Common Sense isn't a Monetary Valve.

RobG

I'm With Ice

If it works, why mess with it? It doesn't look like it was installed yesterday. If it doesn't work,  what has changed since it did? Did it ever work? If not, what problems is the owner having?



Rob

bill_105

my take on it

Is not that small pipe right next to the Circ .to be used for air elimination?

icesailor

Air Elimination Location:

If you read the PDF from Weil-McLain that I posted, or you find the I/O manual that should have been left with your boiler, that "small pipe next to the circulator" is the manufacturers preferred place for an air elimination device. Every Weil-McLain boiler of the 66,68 or WGO/WTO series boiler I ever installed had a float vent installed there. Only on the rare occasions where I re-connected to a expansion type tank did I not install one. See manufacturers installation manual.



The manufacturer does not show filling the boiler through that connection. See manual. Like I posted before, I was taught that it is bad practice to add cold water into the top of a boiler. Hot water or steam.



Made sense to me when I learned it.

icesailor

Bad eyes, bad read:

Sorry Bill.

I misread your posting. I agree. The air elimination goes there. And any other place you want to put it. There is an air elimination baffle built into the inside front section to do that. If you don't put an air elimination device there, it just ends up in the system.

rick in Alaska

cleaning

I am with Ice on this one also. If the system is small enough, such as in most houses I work in, then it really is not going to make that much difference if the expansion tank is on the wrong side of the pump.It will work!

 The biggest issue I see on this boiler is one I see on a lot of boilers and that is no valves for servicing I hate having to purge out lines if I need to change something out because I can't isolate it.

 Also, and I see this a lot on quite a few installations, but it is going to be a nightmare to clean this boiler with the piping stacked on it like it is and the boiler up against the wall. My guess is the guy who installed it doesn't work on them. But then again, the return line is offset so you can get the door open......

Just my take on things.

 Rick

Gordy

What's it not doing, or doing

Is the question. We have been asked to look visually at a boiler set up, and nothing has been said if it's been performing its task or not.



Visually there are some technical things that could be changed to be politically correct. Pumping away? Is there an air issue?



The 1/2 " pipe for air elimination from the baffle in the boiler should have air elimination.



I think a little more pipe support would not hurt. Especially on the supply with the x tanks hanging there.



Having purge valves over electronics not a good idea.



Access for servicing a little lack luster.



No back flow preventer on the feed.



So what's the system not doing?, or doing that's wrong?

Ross_24

Time to add a little more info

This is a three story house. The owner tells me the near boiler piping and boiler was replaced six years ago. She leaves for Florida every winter. Last year, she left the heat on and went to Florida without winterizing any of her pipes.



Air entered the system and eventually gathered at the top of the home (third floor). No heat on the third floor led to a burst pipe. I was not able to see inside the walls, but I believe the potable and heating lines burst. The cold feed to the boiler and the potable main valve were both open.



26,000 gallons of water later she came home.



Sounds like ICE and others hit the nail on the head with the lack of air elimination.



I was at this home to schedule a winterization process for her this year and decided I'd snap a couple pictures. There are plenty of "do" and "don't do" in these pictures, some may greatly affect the system and some may not. I'm just interested in what everyone had to say. You never know what you may learn.

ChrisJ

Air elimination?

Please forgive me for this question as it may come across as dumb but why would air elimination even be needed if the system is tight and the bladder tanks are working properly?



Once completely bled shouldn't a properly working hot water system be completely air free?

icesailor

Picky-Picky:

WELL! If we're going to be picky-picky, I'd personally never have that copper connection to the supply main in copper with those two Extrols hanging off, trying to rip that copper out of the tee. I always piped them with hard steel pipe. If I wanted to improve it, I'd at least hang them up with F&M rings and plates. Ever unscrewed a failed #30 Extrol that was full of water? You aren't sure as you unscrew it. But know when it falls on top of the boiler and breaks something. Tie a 5 gallon bucket to the piping so it falls into the bucket and not on you.   Then, I never put a copper adapter on a PRV like that. I always piped them with black steel nipples and pipe them away so that if it leaks, you can put a bucket under it. The last, down piece gets the adapter and a copper drop piece out of old scrap or whatever. The odd angle on the pipe was to get it out of the way of the door. No more trips back to the truck for the hand torch.

You can really see where the gasket leaked on the old OEM black circulator where they tried using the heat wrench on the bolts. They burned the butt off the cow. Never-Seize is a new and wonderful miracle product, developed long before I knew about it (1958, Hot Rod Magazine). It is a wonderful addition to any fastener. Like circulator flange bolts, the nuts that hold the cleanout bonnet down or the bolt that lets the front burner door open.

I think that there is a BFD on the supply, There is a 1/2" copper line going to the right and down. In one picture, you can see the adapter behind the fill valve. Another look shows that they used a FPT adapter Tee to connect the expansion tanks. That's all hard piped with screw pipe.

Because it is a cold start boiler (no tankless), I'll bet it needs a REALLY good cleaning and the rug pulled out and replaced with a piece of Lynn Wet Blanket. The Kibbles & Bits are probably quite deep.

If someone just went over this boiler and added the new tanks and circulator, they did a fine job. Nice and clean. Years of serviceable life left. IMO.

Gordy

Entrained air

Upon boiler recon and system refill air is purged. But until the system is at operating temp and entrained air released from a cold fill state the system will still have air entrained.

That's if it was properly purged.

No air elimination it all goes to highest point in one big bubble until manually released. She goes to Florida does not hear gurgling pipes wha lah.



I would be suspicious of a small leak also. May have been induced by city pressure . purging when boiler and piping were reworked



Unless the auto fill malfunctioned.



Another case of whether you should leave fill valve open or closed once system is filled. In this case would it have mattered other than contributing to 26 k of water.

Gordy

Swimming pool

In our city they are calling if above average use is going on at your home would have been nice for her.

hot_rod

very possible

that the inadequate air removal on the upper section has a LOTS to do with the pumping toward the PONPC.



Granted hydronics is a very forgiving technology, but installing it the best possible way "pumping away" eliminates exisiting and potential problems and lets you sleep better at night.



If in fact they called you, the hydronics expert, in to solve and on-going problem, give them your best solution, not a close enough.



Also micro bubble air separators remove micro-bubbles, entrained and dissolved air that iron scoop type air purgers never knew exisited Well worth the extra bucks.



A high point vent with a hygroscopic cap would be another nice addition at the top of the system piping.

icesailor

FWIW/Freeze Up:

ROSS:



FWIW, and in MY opinion, everyone is wrong as to the cause of this freeze up problem and are no where near the cause. I've seen it far too many times.

First of all, hot air rises. The third floor is a zone. They turn the thermostats down to save fuel. The 3rd floor thermostat is set to 40 or 45 degrees. Heat from the lower floors ends up on the top floors, not letting the thermostat run. So, during long off cycles, the third floor freezes. If the fill valve is working, and the top floor freezes, it will flood the house from the third floor down. Then, there is the issue of the water pipes that went to the second or third floor. They should have all been drained. The whole house should have been drained with the heat on. Set back thermostats can and will do the same thing. When it is cold, the zones need to run.

If you are leaving the heat on in a house like that, turn the high limit down as low as you can get it. Oil boilers, 140 degrees. It makes the heating system smaller so that it pumps cooler water when the temperature drops. The flowing warm water will not freeze. Still water will. If there is a door to the third floor, keep it closed. Don't let the heat from the rest of the house over ride the thermostat. If the third floor is the roof space, and you have knee walls, there is a very good possibility that cold air infiltration will freeze still water.

There are really only two things I hate in life. Motion sickness and cutting holes in finished surfaces looking for broken pipes.

And caretakers who lack honesty. They always try to blame the plumber for their having "just checked the house last night and everything was fine" so it's the plumbers fault. And they are believed. Well, lets see. It snowed 2 weeks ago. And got very cold. Down to zero for a week. 3 days ago, it went into the 40's. The snow hasn't melted yet. There are no tracks in the snow. How did you check the house? True story.

Then, there's a plumber friend. The Police Department checked the house because a sound alarm was recorded and alarmed. They looked inside and saw the living room ceiling had fallen down on the floor. They found the water running from a second floor bathroom where the 3/8 OD spaghetti supply to the sink had split and ran. The 26' X 40' cellar had 74" of water in it. The damage was in the MILLIONS!!. The Caretaker claimed to have been there the night before and it was the plumbers fault. The owner was the litigious type. He and the insurance company were going to sue the plumber. He passed me a few days after word was out about the damage. I was in a hole in a street thawing a frozen water service when he drove by. "TONY". How you making out on that freeze up with all the damage. Did you figure out when the pipe broke?  SHOCK, HOW? Well, you're a licensed Master Plumber. Remember in class? What are the dimensions of the cellar and the height of the water, Times, LXWXH equals how many cubic feet. There are 7,5 Gallons in a cubic foot. Do the math. How long does it take for that amount of water to pass through 1/4" id pipe?



No more was said to the plumber about the broken pipe and how long it had leaked.

Many Caretakers suck.

Many other war stories freely given upon request. Or I'll be reminded of them.

Gordy

Ice theory

Kinda depends on what pipe burst first. Probably the domestic from lack of heat then the heating. I assume that the system no longer holds pressure.

icesailor

Which Burst First:

I've seen heating pipes burst along knee walls exposed to roof/attic spaces with the heat on and people living in the house.

As long as the circulators are moving water through a zone, it will never freeze. Let it stop, and it will freeze. If the split is on the ends, it is usually because of cold air infiltration. Especially if the riser comes through a wall sill/shoe and through the wall. Insulators will be sure that there is no exposed piping along the floor to freeze.

I would rough heat risers to upper floors and block out with 2X4's on the flat with Van Hangers, making the hole almost 3" centered from the outside wall so that the insulation HAD to be behind the pipe and the pipe on the warm side of the insulation. I would always go back and check after insulation. More than once I found the insulation OVER the pipes, insulated from the warm side. Sheet Rockers might just rip out the insulation and leave it bare to avoid the bubble in the sheet rock. Its the law of unintended consequences.

Like the time a customer found water marks in his crawl space on a beam next to a 3" PVC waste. (What he was doing crawling around looking for things, you had to know the guy). After carefully removing a section of very exotic molded baseboard, I found that when the woodpecker came along with his air nail gun. the nail wouldn't go through the ouch plate, he pilled it out and used a fine wire drywall screw for metal studs. He got through the ouch plate AND into the PVC waste.

Laws of Unintended Consequences. No good deed goes unpunished. The plumber should have used an ouch plate like the electricians use. They're heavier. Not like those thin @$$ ones sold at the Plumbing Supply House.

Ross_24

Like and agree

The new forum will have "like" and "thank" buttons.

ChrisJ

Huh?

What new forum?

Gordy

Emoji