Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Code or Best Practice for connecting 2-appliances to Chimney Liner

AJ_Marks
AJ_Marks Member Posts: 15
I'm a homeowner in Massachusetts, looking for guidance on what's the code or best practice for hooking a gas hotwater heater and gas boiler into a 6" s.s. flex liner. Hook them into the liner inside the Chimney or outside the chimney.  Use Y connections or T's or just pop a hole for the 2" water heater flue pipe into the liner?



Thanks

Comments

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Gas Flue Connections:

    You live in Massachusetts. It can only be installed by a Massachusetts licensed plumber or gas fitter. There is a lot more to your question than you understand, judging by your question. It has to do with the diameter and length of the flue, the type of flue pipe, the amount and total BTU input of the chimney etc. It can't be too big, and it can't be too small. "Chimney Specialists" and HVAC installers who aren't licensed plumbers or gas fitters in Massachusetts can not legally connect the appliances to the new flue.



    Then, a permit and inspection is needed and the permit holder is legally liable for anything you, he or anyone else does.
  • AJ_Marks
    AJ_Marks Member Posts: 15
    Best practice?

    Thanks for guidance. Sure there's more I don't know. Permits were pulled with appropriate licenses.  6" Liner has sufficient BTU capacity based on sizing info provided by contractor.



    I am mostly concerned about how the water heater flue was connected with the liner.  



    Focusing on that aspect, what is code, best practice, or experience?



    Thanks
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    Pulling teeth

    Let's not extract the information .  How was it connected that concerns you ?  Is there a fitting or piping arrangement that bothers you ?  Let's see it .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • AJ_Marks
    AJ_Marks Member Posts: 15
    edited August 2014
    Water heater connect-to-liner picture

    From inside the 6" liner shot from below from the liner clean-out.  From the bottom of the new 6" flex liner, there is the clean-out, then a 6" T-connect for the boiler, then the water heater pipe, as shown.



    The water heater flue seems like it just "taps" into the liner.  Seems like it may cause an obstruction to the boiler vent.  OK? Should it have a 'T' like the Boiler's connect? Other concerns?



    Thanks
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,603
    Best practice ?

    No, I'd say not . Code ? Not in New Jersey so I doubt in Mass . Did this pass an inspection by the AHJ ? 
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • AJ_Marks
    AJ_Marks Member Posts: 15
    Trying to be 'proactive'

    Did not inspect yet. I was trying to be 'proactive' with some guidance or a picture to follow.  I made mistake of not insuring that heating contractor and chimney contractor were communicating effectively with one another and this resulted in the "gap" between their work.  
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Gaps:

    If both are professionals, you shouldn't have to be worrying about "Gaps". The "Gap" you show is more like a Breach.

    Inspectors are not responsible for anything that they miss. Because someone did it wrong, doesn't make it right if an inspector misses it.

    If I did that, ant you mentioned that to the inspector and left the photo, I wouldn't be PO'ed if you did. I FU'ed and have no one to blame but myself.



    I doubt that there is anything in the Mass Gas Code or the National Code that they also follow, that would think that connection is fine.

    I also question anyone who connected a flue like that, in that way, knows who to properly size that vent with the additional water heater. There is a method to it. If either are Massachusetts Licensed Plumbers or gas Fitters, and have been since they instituted the CEU requirements, that issue was covered in Session 3 or 4. If they didn't complete the courses, then they aren't licensed. The Board sets the requirements for the courses. That issue was taught. No orphaned flues and no 3 sided chimneys. And especially no too big or too small flues.
  • Bob Harper
    Bob Harper Member Posts: 882
    vent connections

    The liner must be installed in accordance with manufacturer's listed instructions and to the building code. The installer is responsible for these in full regardless of what an inspector says or misses. BTW, passing code means you scored a D minus.

    The common vent's capacity must be derated 20% for corrugated plus an additional 20% for each offset from vertical not counting the breaching. The liner base should be either pulled through or use a listed tee. Galvanized steel vent connector cannot be cemented into the chimney. Vent connectors must be flush with the inner wall of the flue--not as shown in the photo, which severely restricts flow not to mention allows gaps in the liner and thus defects one aspect of why to have a liner.

    The WH vent connector appears to be a 3" with less than 3ft of vertical vent rise. In that case, it would need to be upsized to 4". While I think it is asinine that only plumbers can reline chimneys it is the law of that state and thus you must comply.

    You can use separate entry points or breachings into the liner or a manifold into one common breaching if the rest of the code is followed.
  • AJ_Marks
    AJ_Marks Member Posts: 15
    Thank you for reply

    Thank you
  • AJ_Marks
    AJ_Marks Member Posts: 15
    Thank you for reply

    Thank you
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited September 2014
    Chimney Lining Installers:

    Bob Harper,

    In Massachusetts, (I'm not a code "expert") I don't think that the liner must be installed by a licensed plumber or gas fitter. It will need a building permit and overseen by someone with some form of Construction Supervisor's License. But, the licensed Plumber or Gas Fitter is responsible for the legality, permit and inspection of the vent connections into the newly installed. permitted and inspected flue.

    There was a serious problem with HVAC installers installing modulating direct vent gas boilers where a gas provider or installer was doing the legal gas piping, but the HVAC person, who was unlicensed to do gas, was installing the venting. Where I worked, every HVAC company did their own venting. One LP gas provider did the majority of the gas piping installs. I saw all kinds of illegal vent terminations by one company that also did all the plumbing to storage tanks unpermitted. No one cared. I used to tell one of the principals of the LP company that they couldn't do that. That they were assuming responsibility for someone beyond their legal control to do work for them. That just because someone else vented it before they got there to gas pipe it, if it was wrong, they were responsible. And if anyone was ever injured, they would be responsible. Of course, that continued my unblemished string of @$$hat of the month. Until, that same HVAC company vented a modulating 90+ gas/AC furnace under a deck with a window under the deck and there were sleeping quarters in the cellar. They left the window open, and many people down in the cellar were exposed to CO. After the Fire Dept. and the Health Department were done, attention was noticed by all. I was still a @$$hat. Money changed hands.

    Ever serviced a Heatmaker ll installed in a crawl space, in front of the foundation access with the exhaust vent directly over the opening, an inside corner 12" away, the electrical meter and LP gas regulator all jammed into that small space in the corner, with the prevailing winds blowing exhaust gas under the house where you are working? That's why I bought my personal CO detector. So if and when it went off, I could leave the area. And gas installer wasn't responsible. The HVAC installer was. And not the responsibility of the AHJ inspector who approved it.
  • Spence
    Spence Member Posts: 316
    Venting

    Advice on sizing without knowing the common vent height, appliance connector rise, length of connector, and BTUH of appliances; how is this possible?
  • Jack
    Jack Member Posts: 1,045
    Ice...

    In any training I do I always tell the guys that "just because it fits doesn't mean that is where it goes" You have to be able to access and service it!
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Advice:

    Way back many, many sunrises ago, when I was an employee, we were erecting a Smith-Mills/HB Smith 2500 Series boiler. Being the compulsive reader of instructions that I am, I remarked to the boss that the instructions were a little on the sparse side. To which he replied, "When you get to this level, you're supposed to know what you're doing". I never forgot that.

    Just because you're doing something, doesn't mean that you know what you are doing. In the case of the above discussed flue, I don't think that someone(s) knows what they are doing.



    And until I took my CEU class a few years ago and it was discussed, I didn't understand it all that well either. If you want to stay on top of the others, you have to take classes. It ties all the knowledge together. Education is cheap. And the rewards are worth it.

    IMO.
  • Spence
    Spence Member Posts: 316
    Advice

    Nice.