oil burner replacement

jt27

We live in 1400sq ft house  Massachusetts and have an old Columbia boiler than needs replacing.  We keep it cool in the winter - around 60. We've had lost of quotes.



Buderus g115 with Logmatic. The installer says it will save about 30%.  True? Also had a quote ofr  PrurePro ODR system. Any difference between the two?



Other boiler brands include Burnam, Williamson, Prure Pro and Axeman Anderson. With the boilers, is there an advantage to American Pin Style vs. Euro-style three pass?



The cost of the Buderus and PrurePro with the ODR is about 50% higher than something like the Axeman Anderson. Is it worth it?



Thanks.



John

Steamhead

Go with the 3-pass

these are much easier to service, so there is a much better chance of their being serviced properly. 

billtwocase

ditto

3 pass way to go. I prefer Pensotti with Riello, but that is just me

billtwocase

Everyone is wrong, you are right

R Mannino

BC You act like a troll sometimes. He will save 30% with that change in equipment. The Logamatic has a 26 degree differential built into it so as to limit short cycling, you're not bouncing off a tight diff setting so to speak.

billtwocase

I think BC works for the gas company. All he does is copy and paste and add his 2 cents that isn't even worth 1 cent. He has done a heat loss on this particular house from his comfy cozy chair at home. That is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sad thing is that home owners and DIY's see comments that he and other stone throwers, and lose faith in sites like these. Professionals don't bash, if they are an actual professional. Copy and paste that

HydronicComfort

Peerless Pinnacle PO-70 Oil-Fired Condensing Boiler. No need for a chimney, it can be utilized with a concentric direct vent; one wall penetration only. .50 GPH nozzle, fantastically quiet and can be ordered with an outdoor reset sensor.

The #2 controller allows different set-points for heat and DHW production with DHW priority.

It's a condensing boiler, too--but unless you have 105-degree return water temperatures you will not benefit from this feature. It's 91.7 AFUE in condensing mode. It's exhaust temperature is very low, approximately in the 130-degrees range.

You can add a buffer-tank and additional fin-tube convectors sized for the correct water temperature to allow condensing. The buffer tank will allow longer, more-efficient burns and less cycling.

It's an unheralded boiler; not many people know of them or have had them installed. It's reliable and durable. Have it double-filtered (canister and cartridge) and a tiger-loop installed. The tiger-loop de-aerates the oil and if you ever run out of oil, two reset attempts and you'll be up and running with no system bleeding required.

This is a pricey boiler; worth every penny. But if you're keeping your house at 60-degrees that speaks volumes about your mindset. In that case, you may want a Biasi three-pass boiler. It's the thrifty way to go. You can skip the buffer tank too, if cost is an issue.

Here is a link to the boiler: http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/ResidentialBoilers/PeerlessPinnacleOil/tabid/115/Default.aspx#dnn_productratings

and the buffer tank: www.boilerbuddy.com

billtwocase

BC, don't know how you come up any #'s? I mentioned 2 manufacture's names only. Didn't mention model, size, input, output, ODR, indirect, or anything. Not a fan of this unit? Probably never put your hands on one. EK is also another good choice. Also over sized. I see no mention of what he has for radiation, or anything pertaining to construction, layout, or anything other than square footage, yet you have nailed his heat loss down. You are amazing. Can you tell me what tonight's winning Powerball #'s are? I would be ever so grateful

icesailor

Some of you have "Short Cycling" on the brain. Its obstructing your cognizant thinking. A boiler and its controls are the engine if the vehicle, constantly changing settings to accommodate the load conditions. More gas when the load goes up, less gas when the load goes down.

Try driving your vehicle down the road with one gas setting. As you drive along, and go up and down, you either ram the car in front of you (load went down) or the cars behind you bump into you or honk (load went up).

You have one group of people that absolutely loose it when they hear a burner running. It cost them money (they think). Then they are happy when it stops (not spending money). Then, it comes on again (cost money). The heart rate and Blood Pressure goes up.

Some confuse "boiler efficiency" with "Burner Efficiency and "Combustion efficiency". Am I the only nit wit that after dropping the size of many nozzles, that there was a point where combustion efficiency dropped too? Like any where when the stack temperature got to 350 degrees or lower? That this Holy Grail of boiler thought was counter-productive? IMO, to carry this to a logical conclusion, every emitter should be a cast iron because as the real old timers always said "It holds the heat".

You spend good money for "Buffer Tanks" so you can use a tea pot boiler, when a larger volume boiler acts as a "Buffer Tank" from the moment it is taken out of the crate. Have some lost focus and direction? A 75,000 BTU boiler in a 36,000 house? 36,000 BTU loss for a week per year? And at both ends of that 36,000, as the weather warms or cools, the load of 36,000 is going down? Like your car or truck?

Want a good example? Go out in the yard and take ALL the tools out of your work truck. Weigh them. Take the truck for a spin, Drive up and down some hills. Go on an expressway on-ramp. Notice the power you now have. That's LOAD. The extra you need to compensate for the load that you are unaware of. Or, why you buy big engines for your work trucks. And why you shouldn't try to fins the smallest boiler available for a imagined load. Check your milage. How many gallons of gasoline would you save if you didn't take all those extra tools, not needed but a few times a year, didn't go for a 100.000 mile joy ride with you?

Where I worked, there was one oil company. They were all computerized years ago with the latest Scully technology. You could go in and they could give you any number on prior usage for any customer that they serviced. Before most changes I did, I went in and got histories. After the new installations, I did comparative histories. The savings were there. You wouldn't live long enough to pay for most replacements. Unless there were major upgrades in heat loss.

Don't be promising on things you can't prove and produce. My Florida home, I upgraded the AC system. I replaced all the ductwork and a more efficient system. Hired a good company. They did a really nice install. But it didn't cool as well as the old, and it cost much more to run. If I wasn't knowledgeable, and like many customers we deal with, I would have been all over the installing company about where are all the promised savings? What could they say? I had the proof. If there was something I could have done to improve the system, I would have done it if they had told me. But, I added enough attic insulation to make it over R-30 and all my problems went away. It cools better and cost way less to operate.

When I cleaned boilers, I thought they should look like brand new out of the crate. When I say that warm start boilers can be made to look brand new and cold start ones can't, I say that from experience. If they Hydronics industry doesn't start servicing equipment in a proper way, it will all be Warm Air HVAC.

icesailor

I enjoy your trolls. They keep my aged mind working.

They make modulating oil burners. In very large sizes. They have intricate controls for correcting the combustion efficiencies. Its easy to do with gas, a low energy fuel. You still have to carefully control combustion. If not for computer controlled electronic fuel injection, normally aspirated carbureted cars would still be getting 6 to 8 MPG. The throttle is the instrument that controls the power of combustion for whatever fuel you use.

A AA Top Fuel Dragster, burning Nitromethane fuel, now only run 1/8 or a mile because when running on quarter mile tracks, they ran out of room or went airbourne. They burn around 6 gallons per run. Therefore, they get about 48 Gallons per Mile. Or, GPM. NOT, MPG

Its 82 degrees outside now. How many of those 15,000 BTU's do I need to heat my house today?

In the world that I lived and worked in, with regular folks (and that included the more well to do among us), unless there was water running out of the boiler and on the floor, they are going to get what they can afford and will work only slightly better than what they have. The only ones that go for the whole enchilada you are selling are the ones that have a contractor or architect that specs in a contract and no one has anything to do with the cost. (Someone is making big commissions).

I offered Big Blue (Buderus) as the high end, Ole Mustard Yellow (W-M GO Pinners as the mid range, and Peerless W-B (One Size Fits All as El Cheaper. I never sold Big Blue or the One Size Fits All.

I gave choices.

At over $3.00 for a Grande cup at Starbucks, the savings with all wouldn't buy a cup of coffee.

RJMCTAFO

The same thing BC is saying about oil holds true to probably 80 percent of gas fired units also. An on off gas valve is the same as an on off oil burner. That being said the install in my profile pic replaced a very serviceable wbv with a tankless. When a wbv comes out with a stack temp of 450 to 500 degrees and a Buderus goes in with 350 stack temp then science says there will be savings. You're taking more usable heat out of your heating dollar. Add the outdoor reset and variable speed pump and I don't have any problem saying that a customer will save. So in my mind until every burner, whether it gas or oil is modulated then it is a moot point.

billtwocase

Ice, I wouldn't waste anymore time with this armchair mechanic. He has not brought forth any suggestions himself.

R Mannino

So.......where would a System 2000 fit into this conversation?

My G115 doesn't short cycle, at least not like the old dry base with the dual aquastat did and on single digit days the run times are quite long.

R Mannino

bc3510 said:

billtwocase said:

Ice, I wouldn't waste anymore time with this armchair mechanic. He has not brought forth any suggestions himself.

I already gave you my suggestion. Apparently, you're unable to read and comprehend it. Use a piece of equipment that is sized to the heat loss and don't use your favorite go to boiler just because you like it.

We have to get the customer to actually pay for this stuff you know. Most people don't want to pay top dollar for top shelf equipment and installation of such. Some customers are perfectly happy with a pinner and a tankless, I'd rather do something more efficient but it may not be in the budget.

At 500-600 gallons a year for MY house I would have to spend dollars to chase pennies.

RJMCTAFO

But to what cost. If a customer can save 30 % with a cast iron boiler and it costs twofold the install price to go gas with a modcon for 10 % more efficiency are you really spending the customers dollar wisely? Will they ever get the money back in there lifetime? Add in higher maintenance costs and its an even more expensive proposition.

That being said I I stalled a mod con two weeks ago. Why? Because it was radiant and the floor was designed to keep the boiler condensing 100% of the time. It made sense.

For the average house such as the example I posted,1600 sq foot with a 115- 3 and outdoor reset that burns 450 gallons a year with hot water how can you justify the install cost of a modcon versus what I did.

It is a conversation that can go on and on because we both have our convictions about what is best.

Have a good night.

R Mannino

RJMCTAFO said:

But to what cost. If a customer can save 30 % with a cast iron boiler and it costs twofold the install price to go gas with a modcon for 10 % more efficiency are you really spending the customers dollar wisely? Will they ever get the money back in there lifetime? Add in higher maintenance costs and its an even more expensive proposition.

That being said I I stalled a mod con two weeks ago. Why? Because it was radiant and the floor was designed to keep the boiler condensing 100% of the time. It made sense.

For the average house such as the example I posted,1600 sq foot with a 115- 3 and outdoor reset that burns 450 gallons a year with hot water how can you justify the install cost of a modcon versus what I did.

It is a conversation that can go on and on because we both have our convictions about what is best.

Have a good night.

I concur, I could switch to an LP burning mod/con but I'd be spending dollars chasing pennies. Application mean a lot.

SWEI

Full modulation is a wonderful thing, but it's technically demanding and not inexpensive to build or to service.

Two stage firing brings significant improvements in both comfort and efficiency with a lot less complexity. The cast iron boiler manufacturers could probably squeeze another 10 years out of their foundry investments if they offer a two stage burner/valve option on both gas and oil appliances in residential sizes.

billtwocase

I already gave you my suggestion. Apparently, you're unable to read and comprehend it. Use a piece of equipment that is sized to the heat loss and don't use your favorite go to boiler just because you like it.

I don't see any actual systems recommended by you, unless you are talking about a 100k BTU Arcoliner with a tankless coil? Those are the best, no?

icesailor

"" But to what cost. If a customer can save 30 % with a cast iron boiler and it costs twofold the install price to go gas with a modcon for 10 % more efficiency are you really spending the customers dollar wisely? Will they ever get the money back in there lifetime? Add in higher maintenance costs and its an even more expensive proposition. ""

Its the CUSTOMER's choice on what they want to spend their money on. If I get too pushy about selling something the customer isn't wanting, they'll be calling someone else and I just wasted a lot of time on something that ended up with no gain to me.

Very few people go to a car dealership and order specifically what they think they want. The manufacturers have "groups" of options. People buy cars off a lot with options they like. They might not even care what the color is. But price is the deciding factor. Most people have already done their homework when they go to shop. Dealer management has sales rules that no one leaves the lot without a car. You would not believe how low they are willing to go.

It goes along with what an old Sparky told me long ago about customers and people.

#1, If they wanted to know exactly how much it will cost, they know exactly how much they will pay, and nothing more, no matter what.

#2, If they want to know "About" how much it will cost, they know "about" how much they will pay, and nothing more.

#3, If they say "Just do it, regardless of the price", they don't care how much it will cost. Because they have no intention of paying for it.

#1, was fine. They knew what they wanted and will pay you for it. #2, was OK to work with. There was a back and forth, but you knew where you and the customer stood.
#3, To be recognized and avoided at all cost.

SWEI

bc3510 said:

SWEI said:

Two stage firing brings significant improvements in both comfort and efficiency with a lot less complexity. The cast iron boiler manufacturers could probably squeeze another 10 years out of their foundry investments if they offer a two stage burner/valve option on both gas and oil appliances in residential sizes.

Bingo.

This is the jackpot for sure.

I was looking at the Lochinvar Solution for a gas installation that uses exactly this approach.

Why all the gas boiler manufacturers do not utilized this setup is simply beyond me.

It's actually fairly simple for most of them -- just a gas valve/regulator swap and perhaps some orifice/burner tweaks. @JStar‌ and @gerry gill‌ have seen impressive results retrofitting two-stage valves on natural draft boilers, though the controls do become a tad more complex.

It gets more difficult with oil due to the nature of the nozzle, but even that should be possible with some development efforts.

The oil industry needs to push for this before they hit the wall, but their ability to see down the road seems quite limited. By the time those mortar lines come into focus, it's going to hurt.

KC_Jones

I am no expert by any means, but why would it be so difficult to modulate an oil burner with current technology. I equate it to this. Fuel injection on a car. A fuel injector has a fixed opening size and can essentially modulate for whatever load is placed on it. This is done through pulse modulation of the injector, longer pulses more fuel bigger bang. Why wouldn't similar concepts work for an oil burner to modulate? In addition a variable fuel pressure regulator could be employed which can also help vary the output. I am sure it's probably not that simple, but conceptually why wouldn't something along those lines work?

icesailor

Conceptually, it sounds simple. In practice and in the field, it doesn't work as expected.

If you could do all of what you want to do with an oil burner for $100.00, few would buy it, and there would be no profit in it.

In other words, you can't sell what people won't buy.

JStar

I'll just leave this here...

http://carlincombustion.com/literature/datasheet/burners/residential/oil/mnezh2lc-041508.pdf

SWEI

Nice! What's the cost adder (in percent, roughly) over a standard burner of similar size?

Buderus is listed as a member of their "OEM Team" in the literature (which dates from 2008, BTW.)

icesailor

@SWEI:

There have been many attempts to make some sort of small modulating oil burner. None have been successful in the reliability area. If you can run white kerosene through it with multiple spin-on filters to get rid of the crud, they would work better. The state of fuel oil today and the contaminants in it make the nozzles just to sensitive to failures. Standard #2 red heating oil is full of crud. Low sulfur diesel truck oil is a lot better, but expensive.

I had an account that was a excavation and trash hauling contractor. He bought his own road diesel and ran it in his personal and family oil burner/boilers. The road tax was paid, so he paid more. The boilers almost didn't need cleaning they ran so well. There was never a sign of carbon/sludge in the bottom of the Garber Spin-On filters. All were warm start boilers and after a year, only had a grey/brown ash. No Kibbles & Bits.

SWEI

My only experience with oil heat was during the 10 years or so we spent in Reno, NV. Somewhere around 2004-2005 the oil guys told me we were all using low sulfur now, and that the red stuff (whether ORD or #2) came out of the same pipe as the road stuff, with the dye added locally.

icesailor

SWEI said:

My only experience with oil heat was during the 10 years or so we spent in Reno, NV. Somewhere around 2004-2005 the oil guys told me we were all using low sulfur now, and that the red stuff (whether ORD or #2) came out of the same pipe as the road stuff, with the dye added locally.

I've heard that same story.

My customer using over the road diesel, made the seamless change. I went to clean the boiler at his mothers house. It was almost spotless inside and the filters were almost spotless. Dual filtered with Spin-On's of course. The difference was more than noticeable, it was obvious. Then, I did the business office. Same thing. Then, I realized that he had switched to low sulfur road diesel. The guy had his own oil delivery truck. He used to fuel his equipment on site. He only used it for heating for members of his family. Road taxes were all paid on the oil. There was no cheating.

If he had the problems with Red Oil that we heaters have in oil burners, in his Diesel trucks, he would have been jumping up and down with rage. Nothing worse than a big 10 wheeler parked on the side of the road with a full load of gravel, and the gang waiting for the gravel while installing a septic tank. Worse, a 14 Yard concrete truck with a full load of mixed concrete in the drum and no power to spin it out.

Bob Bona_4

My experience has been it's tough to keep reliability in firing rates/nozzles under .65 too. If it isn't the fuel quality, it's chamber heat gumming up the nozz orfice. I think back a ways Toyotomi or somebody had a .40 gph heater...

IMO, RnD on small res oil burners is stagnant or very low due to the oil sinking ship.

icesailor

Riello's usually run at 150#+. That means that with a .50 GPH nozzle, the firing rate is higher.

In my minority and unpopular opinion, the biggest problem with firing small output nozzles into oil burners all gathers around the fact that they want to fire it into a bare chamber with no reflective refractory at all. They all swear that you don't need a "rug" to make them run well. That may be so when the water is hot. Try it with a cold (less than 100 degree) entering water and watch it smoke. Until it gets hot. Flame retention burners depend on hot gasses from the front/end of the flame, coming back to heat the flame. If the under area is cold, the back flowing flame will not have enough energy reflected back into the return flame to help support combustion. IMO.

The higher the pump pressure, the smaller the droplets, the better the burn, but the harder it is to burn because the oil vapor temperature drops because of the loss of heat from expansion.

I played "Fun With Combustion" with my own W-M WTGO-3 and the rug in and out. Trust me, in spite of what anyone says from the factory, I got better combustion numbers with the rug IN than when the rug was out. Even if the boiler was hot. Carlin Tech Support (at the time) agreed with me.

I think that I can make anything run. The first Buderus I did with a Carlin EZ-1 smoked like a potential lung cancer patient. Until it got hot. It would cycle off, cool down, come back on, and smoke. So much so that it often went off on safety. Until it got hot and bright. I put a rug in it and problem was solved.

billtwocase

You are correct Ice. Nozzles are rated at 100 PSI . 140 to 180 PSI is the norm today for atomization. That makes the input of a .50 nozzle close to a .62 at 150 PSI. As your input rises, so doesn't the out put. Even more oversized

billtwocase

I run .50 on up no problems. Good filtration helps

icesailor

bc3510 said:

The B-3 uses a .50 nozzle firing at 180 psi with the Beckett AFG and delivers .55 gpm to the chamber. It's about as low as you can get with a fixed orifice.

A .50 GPH nozzle, fired at 175# is rated to deliver .71 GPH. NOT .55.

http://www.steinen.com/oil-burner/usa/english/pressure-flow-tables-gph.php

RJMCTAFO

A riello f3 firing .50 @ 145 psoi is the lowest listed firing rate for that boiler. Comes to a .60 firing rate. Have it in my basement and tried to run that. Good luck with an indirect. Wouldnt run a Buderus s120. Had to upfire it.

Was the first Biasi I installed and it was in my own home. Not impressed personally. Decent boiler but I think there are better available.

billtwocase

It is not a manufacture thing, it is a nozzle versus pump pressure thing. As Ice said a .50 nozzle with 180 PSI is close to .70 GPH. I think your "go to" boiler specs are incorrect. My "go to" boiler has the same input as yours, yet mine has a higher output, and higher efficiencies. Go figure

icesailor

"" Of course it would run an indirect. It just takes more time to recover. ""

you've obviously lived and worked in the same real world that we work in. Someone spending the kind of money you will end up charging for your high cost system, will leave the girls in the shower with wet soapy hair. They won't give one red rat's rectum what your excuse is, they will be irate and you will look like a penny waiting for change.

But I have finally figured out what you need. A Florence Stove with a Kerosene Pot Burner and a coil. You can slow that as low as you want. Or, the oil stove on commercial fishing boats. They have a little blower and you can control the oil flow into the burner. You can cook and fry eggs on the top, and bake a cake in the oven. It has side boards so the pots don't fall off in a seaway.

billtwocase

Now there's some memories Ice. sleeve/pot burners with an Autopulse pump. Kero and wicks. Don't miss cleaning and working on those. BC, if you have contact with a Biasi rep, I would hand them a Delavan or equivalent pump pressure chart. They might find it interesting. Are you sure that the Beckett is not an NX? Those are more apt to be mounted on that boiler. Those will run 175 to 190 PSI.

billtwocase

I would also like to see successful modulating for oil fire systems. I have seen attempts in the past, and it was always problematic. Mainly commercial

RJMCTAFO

I disagree about the indirect. I beleive Buderus says that an S120 needs 9.3 GPM to get rated recovery rates. Simple math means 93k btuh. A Biasi is somewhere around 60k. So....... Therefore a larger indirect would require more btu. Making the problem worse.

I have mine fired with a .50 and needed to add a temp valve and up the temp on the tank. Once I did that the wife was no longer mad!!! Haha

billtwocase

BC, not my quote above that you copy and paste, but no problem. It was by Ice, so all is good. The fact of the matter is that until a .20 nozzle on up is developed, and a decent boiler to accommodate, every oil boiler will be overkill with a low # heat loss as the OP. Saying that we are doing our customers an injustice is an incorrect statement, when you are pushing the same equipment with the same or more of an output rating. Have you ever done a heat only boiler? Not every customer is in need of an indirect. I have many customers with alternate sources of hot water. I will now bow out of this pointless thread, as others have. Peace be with you BC

KC_Jones

billtwocase said:

BC, not my quote above that you copy and paste, but no problem. It was by Ice, so all is good. The fact of the matter is that until a .20 nozzle on up is developed, and a decent boiler to accommodate, every oil boiler will be overkill with a low # heat loss as the OP. Saying that we are doing our customers an injustice is an incorrect statement, when you are pushing the same equipment with the same or more of an output rating. Have you ever done a heat only boiler? Not every customer is in need of an indirect. I have many customers with alternate sources of hot water. I will now bow out of this pointless thread, as others have. Peace be with you BC

Just for reference I don't know a single person who has an indirect. Every family member, friend and neighbor uses a separate hot water heater. Good bad or indifferent this is the way it is in my area...including myself. Just wanted to add that in support of your comment.

SWEI

Don't forget that the typical 40 gallon gas-fired tank heater only delivers 30-36k of heat into the water.