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How would you....? (daycare mixing)

Hilly Member Posts: 421
So I have been asked do the plumbing for a family friend on a new daycare centre. I've looked the plan on there are 7 Basins, 3 KS, two Laundry Tub, and one dishwasher. I want the mixing valves.. nobody is looking for them here, but I'm making them have them because I don't want anything coming back to me or them. An injured child because of me wouldn't sit well on my chest. Mixing is the right thing to do

I was considering just to temper the whole building with a thermostatic mixing valve but noticed the lowest flow rate I could get it to function ideally is 1.4gpm. (I was specigically looking at the caleffi mixcal with temp sensor) If only one handsink is turned on and the faucet only delivers 1.0-1.2gpm with this actually work?

I intend to mix the KS's also because this is an open concept building and they are easily accessible by the children. But should I run hot water to the LT's for cleaning purposes?

Sorry, I know I ramble sometimes so I'll list my Q's

1) how would you temper this system, point of use or at the source?

2) Should I avoid Thermostatic only and use Scald Protection Device?

3) Would you run a higher temperature to the LT fixtures in the locked supply rooms?

I'd like to do this efficient and economically, but not cheap out either... since Lawyers fee's will far outweigh anything I put into this system.


  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Depending on your State:

    Depending on the State you live in, the codes are specific in what you can use in this application. You usually have to temper the water like it is a nursing home. and there can be no possibility of scalding children. It takes a thermostatic/Pressure Balance approved for application type valve. Not all valves are approved for your application. Point Of Use valves may be OK in a residence but might not CYA in a school/day care setting. It can actually get into OSHA type regulations. Whatever brand you pick, I would call Technical Support and get it in writing that their valve is approved for your application and get instructions from them on how it MUST be installed.

    If you are in Massachusetts, you should call The Board and ask them. They can usually give you an answer immediately.

    In the late 1980's, I started to do service work in a nursing home that was less than 5 years old. They had a 2" N2 Watts hot water extender that had been spec'ed by a Mechanical Engineering firm that specialized in Nursing Homes. I was called because of hot water problems. I thought it just needed a new element. I called Watts. When I told them what I wanted and what I was doing, I was immediately switched to their engineering department. I was given the Chief Engineer who was a woman. Who commenced to chew me out from my right foot, all around to my left foot for installing that valve and NOT reading the explicit instructions to NOT EVER install that valve where there was ANY risk of tempered water falling on human skin. That the valve wasn't designed for that application. I told her that I didn't install the valve that it was already there. She sent me a legal notice that WATTS Regulator Company was in no way responsible for any injury that valve might cause due to scalding or any other type of injury. That it had to be IMMEDIATELY removed from service. At that time, Watts did NOT make any type of Pressure balance, Anti-Scald type mixing valve. Neither did Symmons. According to Symmons. The only available and approved valves at that time were Leonard (which I replaced it with) and Powers.

    You have no idea how fast human skin can burn with hot water. I'm sure that Mark Etherton can post some charts that show how fast it can happen.

    Don't take it lightly. It is a big dog with really big teeth.
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 421
    edited August 2014
    Best I got so far

    Hot water requirements for hand-washing are 110-115F.

    That is from Standards and Guidelines for Health in Child Care Settings (2005) released by the Gov't of NL.

    I think whatever route I take that the water should be more in the range of 103-110? Any thoughts.

    It is Sunday I will have to call around tomorrow during business hours. I know the plumbing code here has nothing on it, but I believe hot water in child and elderly care settings is being addressed for the next code upgrade (2015 Edition)
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 19,260
    good reading here


    Any idea what the max GPM that will be required? On large flow buildings it may be best to use a Hi-Low mixer. It's hard to find a hi flow, large Cv valve that will regulate down to .5 gpm.

    Your building official should be able to point you to the code they use. Day care centers sometimes limit to 100F for hand sinks, so a point of use 1070 valves may be needed at fixtures, with a point of distribution 1017 back at the water heater.

    ASSE is a fairly complicated standard, and it changes every few years. Get the requirement from the AHJ. Manufacturers may not spec the valve as code requirements vary depending on codes used and AHJ moods :)

    Typically a mix of ASSE 1070 and 1017 valves will work.

    If there is a recirc loop in the building you need to be sure it is piped correctly with thermostatic mix valves.

    Idronics 11 has some good info and piping schematics.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 421
    There's no 'Officials' to decide or regulate

    No building inspector help. All they say is 'your plumber can decide'. That's been the answer to almost any question that has been posed. The building designer (engineer) just says ask the town, ask the plumber or do what the code says. They pretty much stamped the vague plans, passed them to the general and said see ya later. It's been tricky to deal with. ie, "Hey I was looking through your plans and your bearing walls on the main don't line up with the basement columns and beams. They miss by a foot on each side. General calls the engineer and he says opps, yeah you'll just have to put in 4 steel cross beams to carry the load." They couldn't just change the walls because the trusses were already designed and manufactured for the second floor layout, so the beams were the best solution. Sorry for the tangent, but I was basically illustrating the fact that what I do here will have to be of my 'own' doing and won't be regulated by anyone.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited August 2014
    I understand your frustration:

    I understand your frustration. I got so tired of trying to install plumbing in buildings that weren't designed to have plumbing in them, and no one was willing to make accommodations for it. Doing service and installs was far more rewarding.

    Regardless of what the AHJ's tell you, if someone gets hurt, the suits will be asking questions, and the AHJ's will have lots of opinions about what you did wrong. And not always honestly.

    CYA is the operative term.

    What Hot Rod says is absolutely true. In the eyes of safety codes, the elderly and infirm are totally covered. Little children in commercial Day Care are almost considered to be like the elderly. They can get scalded before they know it and panic and don't know what to do. If you've ever had 180 degree or higher water splash on your hand, you know IMMEDIATELY that something is wrong. In the time that it takes for a brain to process the thought, that you are being burned, and to remove your hand, you can have a third degree burn. I have a 45 year old scar on the inside of my wrist to prove it.
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 421
    some info

    So there would be a single 1070 valve for every sink that is accessible? Am I right that 1070 is the offcial 'scald protection' device required and that it is single fixture point of use only? 10 of those would certainly add up. I honestly assumed there would have been an acceptable point of distribution alternative. Essentially I need one branch straight from the HWT that is to the DW and all other HW in the building could be the 108 requirement. Btw that's all they said about temp requirements, 100-108F and we haven't a clue what you mean by asse 1070,1071,etc. 'Your plumber will set the water temperature and we should look for the temperature gauge to verify when inspected.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,721
    Little Kids

    are tender , not tough like us leathery old **** yet .  In discussions with many that write the ASSE standards that water above 106* causes pain in most people period . Yeah yeah Iknow but we are leathery old guys after all .  Little kids and =
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • 4Johnpipe
    4Johnpipe Member Posts: 479
    Hot Water

    Take a look at this white paper from ASSME. I would keep all the lavatories low temp, kitchen can be higher if not accessible to children and the dishwasher and utility can be higher still for cleaning. Keep the mixing valves at the heater if you can and recirc the 3 temperatures. If you can...
    Considerate People, Considerate Service, Consider It Done!
    email: [email protected]
  • Hilly
    Hilly Member Posts: 421
    the more I read the less I feel I know

    Everything will be accessible by the children in my opinion. It's a totally open concept building. The DW will have it's own dedicated line directly from the HWT before any mixing occurs. It's one 3/4" straight HE trunk with 8-12' 1/2" branch lines supplying every fixture with one elbow added. (there will be 7Lavs (1.5gpm max), 3KS(2.2gpm max), 2LT(2.2gpm max)

    The two LT's I am considering running 120 to since (it appears in the specs) they will be in locked storage rooms and the water may be used for cleaning applications.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850

    I would use both 1017 at the source and 1070 mixing valves on the fixtures. If the owners want to turn up the temp on certain fixtures that is their responsibility. You need to cover your butt in this litigious society we live in. Explain to the owners that the added expense is covering their butt as well.

    See this link for info: http://www.watts.com/pages/learnAbout/temperingValves.asp?catId=

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Daycare Mixing:

    I've dealt with these people before. They have been around a long time. They can advise you on any facet of what you are trying to do. Personally, I think that POU is overkill and a waste of time when you can control all you want with one mixer.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 19,260
    You can

    Feed more than one fixture from the point of use valve. If you have multiple sinks in a restroom for example. You really do need to use that point of use valve. It is built to be tamper proof and is limited to 120 max. Output temperature

    Your State should have a plumbing code they adopted, refer to that. Or hire an engineer to spec all the Appropiate valves if you are insure or concerned about liability
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991
    edited August 2014
    I did 2 daycares...

    a customer of mine asked me to do the hvac and dhw for 2 daycares his daughter and wife opened, I normally wot get too involved in projects like this because I am not a plumber, but he bought a very expensive geothermal system off of me the year before and I would like to keep his business...

    So anyway, I ran a Rinnai tankless for their hot water {hvac was ducted furnace and coil}, I ran 2 trunk lines one was for all the faucets {these were dedicated daycares not live ins} which was a kids boys bathroom and a kids girl bathroom and a small hand sink in the play room, that had a normal taco mixing valve on it after the rinnai unit. The other line fed the kitchen sink, dishwasher, adult bathroom{only 1 of them had a separate adult bathroom}, and washer. I installed 2 temp controls one at the washer and one at the sink...

    the system has been there a while now and they love it, the inspectors didn't blink at the design and hardest part of the entire job was squeezing under them tiny little sinks, if I ever did that again I would put all the plumbing on them with flex lines then hang them..

    The reason I didn't mix the entire building was because they were preparing food for the kids, the health department wanted 140* at the kitchen and dishwasher, I gave them two options, one was what I did the other was a booster point of use electric tankless for the ktichen to get it to 140 for the health dept.... If I remember correctly the health dept wanted 110* at the kid accessible faucets...

    You or the property owner needs to call the child care licensing board for your area and find out what they want done, I promise it will be more strict than the local inspectors... In my area daycares are inspected by the state....
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Specialty Contracting:

    I only say this because I have experience with it. Nursing homes and "schools" are considered different from normal use and have their own special codes. Just because some inspector isn't on top of what the current rules are for a particular application, doesn't resolve you of the responsibility of doing it properly.

    If you asked Taco if their valve was used in the application you used it in, they would probably say no. There is probably a disclaimer on the valve instructions about what you can use it for.

    Inspector ignorance won't get you a seat at the table if it is wrong. They make enough arbitrary and capricious decisions. It has always been my understanding that legal day care centers, in order to qualify for state and federal funds, must be inspected and licensed.

    If you think I am some sort of know it all, I'm not. I have experience and what I learn is from the manufacturers. They pay people way above my pay grade to design and apply their products. For the cost of a phone call to a Rep or the Manufacturer, you can learn a lot. That's what they do. They want you to buy their product and be happy.