New Boiler Options

butlermog

If my boiler has small leaks (i.e. no water on the floor around the boiler if I overflow the boiler, but i have to add a fair amount of makeup water during the cold months) are all of these options available to me? Or are some of them too risky to even be recommended?



1) reseal the sections of the boiler (WM EGH-85). I can buy the sealing materials, so I imagine that this is a process that the manufacturer allows and has been done successfully before.



2) purchase all new sections for my existing boiler. the labor here would be the same as for option #1, but would guarantee that the boiler sections are good.



3) entire new boiler.



it seems to me that since the boiler is sized close enough to the need (it is a little bit over sized) then options #1, or #2 would get the boiler running better for the next 10 years with a considerable cost savings over option #3. But are options #1 and #2 even recommended by anyone here?



Am I missing any options?

ChrisJ

Not a professional

But my guess is it all depends on what happens when you go to tear the block apart.  If the sections are in good solid shape then new gaskets could fix it, if that is where it's leaking.   If you go to pull them apart and they are rotted above the water line and none of it seems salvageable then you would just replace the entire block and or boiler.



My opinion is you're not going to know until you do it.  How old is the boiler and how has the system been in regards to water usage?  Do you always boil the water immediately after adding it?  Do you monitor and run a decent PH?  Use water treatment?



Under poor conditions a block can rott out in 3 years.  Under good conditions they can last 30-50 years.

butlermog

Boiler Age and Info

The boiler was installed in 1992 from what I can tell. Water usage has increased over the 4 years that I have owned the house. However, I have also increased the winter temperature each year, and as everyone here already knows last year was the coldest in a long while. So I guess it is possible that the problem hasn't gotten much worse, but I just didn't see it as much in the first year because of heating habits.

This might need to be a new thread, but if I need to replace the boiler what is the best one available? I know the MegaSteam is highly regarded here, but I am on gas. I'd love to like Burnham because they are located in a city that I like to support but their efficiency doesn't look as good on paper. So if I'm looking for the best boiler, which is it? (700 sq ft radiation, Mouat vapor system).

ChrisJ

How much

How much water are you using?

My 392sqft system uses around 1/4 to 1/2 a gallon per month when it's cold out running 2 cycles per hour. 



As far as the best boiler, you're going to get a different opinion from almost everyone you ask.  My opinion is it doesn't matter.  All that matters is that you match it as best as you can to the load and that it gets piped correctly.  Personally I use water treatment in my system and run a fairly high PH of between 9 and 10.  I also keep my water extremely clean.

butlermog

RE:

I'm not exactly sure how much water. I will try to measure soon, but my best guess is a gallon per day in heavy heating times.

PH is a good question. I have never tested the house water nor the boiler water. I do have a bottle of the tablets that you all like (I forget the name) which I plan to use after this resealing/new install happens. What PH should I be looking for inside the boiler?

ChrisJ

Water

After the water has been in the boiler for a bit and boiled a few times I like to see a PH of between 8 and 10.  Below 8 I get nervous, below 7 is a guaranteed

Hap_Hazzard

Questions

What pressure is your system running at?



Are there portions of the wet return that are buried or otherwise inaccessible?



You say that you don't see water on the floor near the boiler when you overfill it, but does the water level decrease if you leave it for a day or two?



The reason I'm asking is that you might just have a leaky return. It's very common. Depending on where the leak is, you might not notice any water loss unless the system is running, because the leak could be above the normal water line and water loss would only occur when water backs up in the return, or it might be small enough that it only leaks while the system is under pressure.



Some of the guys here have use air compressors to leak test systems by plugging up all the vents and pressurizing the system to about 5 psi and seeing how well it holds. I would give this a try before tearing down the boiler.

butlermog

RE:

Pressure is usually 2oz and is very stable.

Wet return is completely above ground and is not leaking.

Water level stays if left for several days. This makes me feel as though there are no large holes in the boiler block.

Air compressor test might be interesting. My steam pro is coming out next weekend to take a look and discuss what should be done before it gets cold. I am really hoping that a full boiler can be put off for a bit as I have not had enough time to really research which boiler is right and don't want to get into a situation that I have to choose something like that so quick that I could make a bad choice.

Fred

A couple other things to check out

Check out a couple other things before you tear into the boiler. I had similar problems a few years ago. Is this a one pipe or two pipe system? Mine is one pipe and I had a couple radiators that were not tilted enough for all the condensed steam (water) to return to the boiler, but not enough to create any significant noise in the radiator except occasionally I'd hear a little gurgle when the boiler ran an extended period of time.The second thing to check out are your main vents on the main steam pipes in the basement and the vents on all of your radiators. If any of those are stuck open, they can let steam out which causes less return water to the boiler. The third thing to look at are all your steam pipe joints along the main and the returns but especially along the mains. If they have even a small leak, especially at a flange joint (where there is a gasket) they can leak even the smallest amount of water that turns to steam on the hot pipe and never drip to the floor. If it's a leaky return, you'd probably notice a little water on the floor. The other thing to look at, with the boiler running is the chimney. Is there a plume of steam coming out of the chimney? If so, that would indicate a boiler leak somewhere above the water line that would not be obvious when the boiler is not running. 

butlermog

RE:

Thanks for all of these ideas.

This is a two pipe vapor system. Steam traps are all failed open, but that shouldn't be causing any loss of steam, and a solution for that should be in place this year.

All of the main pipes have asbestos insulation. I have not noticed any signs of water at the joints, but I don't think that I would because of the insulation. I'd love to get rid of that asbestos, but have not found any good information on local companies that do that work (Cincinnati/Dayton Ohio).

All last winter I kept an eye on the chimney and never saw that dreaded white plume which is more reason why I don't think I have a large leak above the water line.

Main vents are something that I investigated last year too. I do not normally have any main vents on the system. All of the air leaves through the return pipes. At the end of the returns there are two open 3/4 inch pipes that allow the air move out as quick as possible. Last year I put 2 Gorton #2 vents on those pipes, but saw no change in water use and those vents never saw steam to close.

I have also suspected that my radiator valves could be leaking (16 radiators), but I can't believe enough steam could be leaving at those points to see this much makeup water.

I will only be at the house for one day before I meet up with the pro, so I don't think that I have enough time to setup the air compressor test. I will probably over fill the boiler and let it stay like that overnight to make sure there is no signs of water around the boiler.

ChrisJ

Confused

I have zero experience with two pipe systems but, wouldn't all of the traps being open and no main vents mean steam can leave the system through those 3/4" vent pipes?

butlermog

RE:

Chris, I felt the same way for a very long time about the open pipes which is why I pit the Gortons on there last year. But the truth is the returns and those open pipes never get hot. There is another homeowner here on The Wall that has a Mouat system like mine with the same setup. It took me a lot of time and testing to get comfortable with those open pipes, but I am 100% convinced that they are not letting steam out.

With that said, you are right that the failed traps would let steam into those returns on long runs, but my boiler rarely runs long enough for my radiators to heat all the way across and down. On the occasion that that did happen last winter the steam would condense long before it got to those open pipes. This year I am going to put a control in place which will make sure the boiler never runs for longer than 12-15 minutes at a time which will make those failed traps even less of an issue and still allow for plenty of heat in the house.

I'm sure this all sounds like I'm saying that I don't want to listen to your advice, but please know that I'm not saying that at all. But instead have spent a lot of time analyzing my system with the help of the great guys and gals here on The Wall and have been able to prove some things - like those open pipes being OK. Even though it sounds so very wrong.

Fred

Dayton/Cincinnati Area??

So You're from the Dayton Cincinnati area? I'm in Dayton. I guess my next question is Why not fix/rebuild those traps? They were put on the system for a reason. When you lose a bout a gallon of water a day, clearly it is going somewhere, either through a leak or evaporation from steam escaping somewhere.I'd hate to see you tear that boiler apart and put a lot of time and money into it or replace it, which is even more money only to have the same problem afterwards.

butlermog

RE:

Yes. I live directly between Cincinnati and Dayton.

I agree with you 100% about the traps. But the cost for the rebuild kits for my traps are really expensive, and many of them have unfortunately been painted over which makes getting the covers off of the traps nearly impossible. Back when the system was designed for the house the coal boiler burning all day made the traps more necessary than they are now with the modern boiler. Again, not meaning to argue but I believe all of the testing that I have done has shown that the open traps aren't really hurting me - especially enough to justify the rebuild cost.

I feel exactly as you do though: that water is going somewhere, and I sure don't want to tear apart the boiler if I don't have to. But all the evidence I have so far keeps pointing to a leak somewhere in the boiler. The other thing that I know for sure is the company that installed the boiler is full of knuckleheads and my near boiler piping proves that to be true. The pro that I'm seeing next week (from a different organization) was the first to tell me that the boiler was where the leak was. He has seen a number of WM boilers with bad seals and says that he has been able to reseal them. At this point I think I have to trust him. Maybe we will find something different and less expensive when we walk through the system.

I know that there are tons of folks here with WM boilers that don't leak - which is why I thought that perhaps buying a new set of sections might be the best option since it is significantly less expensive than a new boiler.

ChrisJ

Flooding

I may have missed it but I don't recall you saying you have flooded the boiler and let it sit?



Raise the water level all the way up, as far as you can get it, even up into the piping some and let it sit for a few days cold.  If you have a rotted section above the water line this is the easiest way to find it.



Don't go crazy, just try to get it to where you think the block is 100% full to the top. 

butlermog

RE:

That is my thought too. If there is no water does that prove that steam couldn't be getting out too? Or is it possible for steam to leave through a leak but water not be able to?

I have accidentally run this test before by forgetting to shut the makeup water valve. In that case I do not remember water on the floor and the water was raised enough to fill the mains and returns. But I was so stresses when I realized my mistake that it is very possible that I overlooked some water on the floor.

Fred

Steam vs Water

I suppose there could be a hairline crack in one of the sections of the block or at the points where the sections connect that opens up enough to leak when the boiler is running and the block is hot. In that case, you probably won't see any water on the floor because it would steam away running down the block. Is the burner area of the boiler bone dry? Do you ever hear a sizzling sound when the boiler is running? I'm still suspect of those failed traps and open vent pipes. Possibly even a leaky pipe in the wall on the return side of one of the radiators.

butlermog

RE:

I haven't heard a sizzle sound, but the burner is so loud I don't think that I would be able to.

What you just suggested is my biggest fear - a leak behind a wall. Haven't seen much evidence on the plaster to think that is the case, but I am pretty terrified of the thought.

butlermog

Great News From Great Steam Pro

A few updates and some solved issues.

First, the boiler looks to be in much better shape than I thought it could be after 22 years. After overfilling the boiler for several days there was no sign of any water outside of the boiler. A few pictures of the inside of the boiler show no signs of leaks.

The air compressor test was unsuccessful due to a compressor which is too small and an obvious leak (or leaks) somewhere. A larger compressor should be able to expose some leaks - but one leak - which I suspect to be the most significant was found. The best tool again was a cell phone camera. The pipe has a very evident crack that could not be seen as it is too close to a wall and a bathtub to inspect visually.



Thanks again to all the folks here that have helped by double-checking my thoughts and providing new ideas.

Now work starts on getting that cracked pipe out of the wall and tile floor.