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Online design services

Stenty Member Posts: 74
I've found some design services listed online via a Google search.

I'm doing some renovations to one of my investment properties and want to install central air. Specifically, a Mitsubishi concealed ducted split.

<a href="http://www.mitsubishipro.com/en/professional/products/heat-pump-systems/m--p-single-zone/m-series-heat-pump-systems/sez-kdsuz-ka">http://www.mitsubishipro.com/en/professional/products/heat-pump-systems/m--p-single-zone/m-series-heat-pump-systems/sez-kdsuz-ka</a>

I'm trying to learn duct design via Manual D but its time consuming and I'd hate to miss something obvious.

Anyway, is anyone familiar with an online design service?


  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,416

    To the world of an hvac mechanical trade trade

    There are two other ways actually three

    Go to school or class on btu's heat loss heat gain 101

    Hire someone that went to school and sat in room to learn this.


    3, Do what your doing, do it for a year or two, I don't think you will be able to lean in 6-8 weeks. Understand what a heat loss and gain is, then your on your way.
  • JStar
    JStar Member Posts: 2,752

    I have a rule in my company...If it's easy, it's probably not right. You would end up spending a lot less time and money if you find a qualified contractor to install these systems. There is a lot of knowledge, and A LOT of tools that you need to properly install and service these systems.
  • NJ, Designer
    NJ, Designer Member Posts: 53
    edited May 2014
    Who did the manual J?

    Do you have a manual J for the job? who's doing the installation? and who Is selecting the equipment (manual S)? Do you need it for permits or do you want it to work?
  • Stenty
    Stenty Member Posts: 74

    I'm doing it myself because after many years of trusting the pros I realize that there are more hacks than pros.

    First, I'm a licensed electrician and I study the code book and I follow the rules. I see work done by other electricians that is both sloppy and dangerous.

    I'm also a former motorcycle mechanic and I see work done by pro mechanics on cars and bikes that is sloppy and prone to failure.

    Now, here's my HVAC experience as an end user.

    I have a 30 tenant commercial property. It's a 100yo former sandpaper factory, Norton to be exact.   www.stentonguild.com

     It is all brick and windows and maple floors...gorgeous. Absolutely, positively no insulation and it has to stay that way because the exposed brick and the massive windows is what brings in the tenants. I have a considerable number of competitors. Also, the exposed steam piping, sprinkler piping, conduit, and steel beams add to the atmosphere.

     I hired a contractor listed on Mitsubishi's website and Carrier's. His website claims BBB and Angies and Misu certified and Carrier certified and etc. ratings.

    So, to make a long story short, after $116,000, I have a woodshop with (4) 120k Carrier furnaces. Two taking care of the perimeter, one inside a spray finishing booth, and one located dead center in the open floor. The 9,000sf floor is wide open.

    I have a Mitsu S series with 8 wall hungs and a single zone and a dual zone on the bottom floor.

    On the top floor, I have a Mitsu City Multi and a dual zone.

    The Carriers in the middle floor woodshop are more than 200% oversized. One furnace has never run since the day it was installed.

    The Mitsu systems are 60% undersized for the top floor and about 30% undersized for the bottom floor.

    That's all that I'm going to say for now. My blood temp is rising and I need to get to work. More later if you choose to hear it but I'll give you a hint.

    The 100k BTU City Multi has 150k worth of wall hungs attached to it. How can a 100k outdoor provide full heat to 150k of indoor?

    The contractor showed me the brochure that stated that up to 150% of indoor capacity can be connected.

    Sure, during the swing months when there's simultaneous heat and cool but during a 10F night?
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,766

    Relax Stenty .  Where are you located ?  I guess you found one of those guys that knows it all and therefore will never learn anything .  Probably has been to 50+ product based trainings but has no clue why things do what they do .  Those who know how should always work for those who know why , unfortunately that is no longer the case .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,416

    But I know what you mean, I did a job for a engineer, and he fumbled the ball, here is what I want you to do get the rep for the specific manufacture that your using, then get two other companies that do heat loses. With spending that much money, wouldn't it be worth it to get three or 4 heat loss / gain?
  • Stenty
    Stenty Member Posts: 74

    First, the contractor showed concern and tried to find a fix. The local distributor and a Mitus rep came out. I think they quietly told him that he screwed up.

    The contractor suggested that we drill many many holes in the floor so that heat from the woodshop below would rise up to provide heat. Ha!

    Then it was to use the "extra" furnace from the shop on the top floor and duct it to each of the 10 studios. That furnace would only supply 1/2 the load but it would have helped but I didn't pay for Frankenstein cobbled heating. Both the City Multi and the furnace would have to run at the same time. And he was going to use the hallway as a return...not allowed.

    Then it was let's put electric baseboard around the perimeter and meter each tenant for the use. That would make my studios unaffordable and the tenants would leave.

    Did you go to the website and see my exterior? Its all brick and windows.

    Then he showed me a list of what I needed to do to my building to bring the heat load down...dropped ceiling with insulation, smaller windows in studded and insulated walls. All as if it was now my fault.

    My building is fully occupied because of the high ceilings, brick walls, exposed piping, exposed beams, big windows. That's my competitive edge. These are artist studios that I rent.

    That's what he was given to heat and cool and that was made perfectly clear to him in the beginning.

    Finally, I wrote a letter to Mitsubishi and explained my situation.They were on board to help until they called the contractor and he lied by saying that my 100yo 12gph oil fired steam system was the primary heat and the Mitsu was back up. The steam system piping was 50% clogged and 1/2 the radiators were missing.

    Also, he told them that I told him upfront that I was going to do the dropped ceiling and studding and insulate and...etc.

    Mitsubishi didn't want to get in the middle and bowed out.

    I'm stopping there for now...blood pressure.

    I mortgaged all of the equity in my house to pay for that HVAC. I use electric space heaters and baseboard to satisfy the tenants. My electric bill puts me in the red for 1/4 of the year.

    Ok, now I'm going to stop. I'll be back.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    I really hate to say this

    but it's starting to sound like you need legal advice.  See if you can find a referral to someone with construction defect experience.
  • Stenty
    Stenty Member Posts: 74
    Too late for legal

    The statute of limitations ran out. He was all full of good will and diligently working on a solution and then he stopped answering the phone completely right when he knew he was in the clear.

    I did talk to several lawyers and between their retainer and the engineer's reports, I couldn't afford to sue him. And even if I did, clearly all he was going to do was to lie and then all of that money on legal fees would be lost. The legal systems works if both parties are fair and ethical.

    It blows my mind that he trashed the opportunity to let Mitsu lend a hand to rectify the issue. They weren't giving out anything for free but were willing to help in any way possible. It was a great opportunity for him to learn something and fix a major screw up and put some pride in his pocket.

    Of course, it would have cost him a fair amount of time, money, and labor to fix it. I was willing to pitch in some cash too.

    Many thanks to Mitsubishi for their offer to help. I'm not trashing them at all. I'd use their product again.
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
    You never know

    Because this has been an ongoing issue you may still have recourse. I would check with a bloodsucker, I mean lawyer.

  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,416
    Sounds like a mess, a real mess,

    So what happened to the steam, does it keep up with the air-conditioning, did u get more then one quote?

    Not that we can't believe you but we can't believe anyone ?

    We can certainly fix the problem.

    But we need some more info. How many apartments? Is steam still an option, what about baseboard for heat?
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850

    It sounds like the main problem that you are Having is with the heat? If so, is it possible to restore the steam system to heat the space? As I'm sure you know, steam heat when properly installed / maintained can be very affective and efficient. As I said before you may still have legal recourse as this has been an ongoing problem. I would look into both options. City Multi is probably a great product for a moderate climate glass building, but not so great for a swing season environment. I'm in Virginia and it would not be effective here.