eg-45 start up questions on surging and wet steam

718KW

I just converted from oil steam to gas steam. The new boiler is a Weill-McClain EG 45 steam boiler.



P 17 of the installation manual says the recommended riser and header should each  be at least 2.5 inches.  The plumber installed a single one foot  by 3 inch riser and a single 2 inch header.  The header is 24 inches  from mid water level on glass gauge  to the middle of header ( which is the  minimum). To attach the header to the 2  long overhead preexisting steam pipes, he basically used  two 2 one foot risers and two 1 foot by 2 inch diagonals.



It took roughly 20 minutes from cold before there were any feelings of steam in the radiators but approx 35 minutes before the radiators started to really give heat.



My question:  Long before there was any sign of  steam heat, I heard the sounds of a lot of water returning in the two return pipes. Is that okay?  The water in the glass gauge was surging up and down approximately one inch.



Although the plumber checked to see if system was operating without leaks I don't believe he skimmed it. I skimmed about 5 large pails of water which was initially jet black  but it eventually cleared somewhat..



Perhaps I am getting wet instead of dry steam and if you agree has it anything to do with the header size?  Do you think the header be increased from 2 to 3 or at least 2.5 

inches?   Perhaps his installation was correct, as he has been doing it

fro over 20 years?

 Perhaps I should change the radiator steam vents as there was quite a bit of pipe banging (although it was not that loud). The plumber will replace the main vents when he returns for final inspection.

nicholas bonham-carter

Installation

If the plumber has not followed the instructions which came with the boiler, then he has not installed it correctly, and probably has been doing it wrong for 20 years.

The pipe sizes are very important, and any reduction in diameter will shoot more water up in the system instead of dry steam.

Post some picture of this and we can tell you more .--NBC

718KW

posting photos of the installation

Nicholas,



I very much appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.

I am making a second attempt at attaching photos since my first attempt apparently failed.  Each time I try to post photos my entry shows " file attachment", " browse" and the correct JPG  file name, but does not display the photo.



If the photo does not display I would be happy to send it to you at any

email address that you would feel comfortable providing.



  I chose this plumber as he was highly rated by the local plumbing supply shop, great recommendations on yelp and Angie's list.. Beside thickness issue, would it help if the header was a little higher?

  Any recommendations on radiator steam vents. I bought Hoffman variable vents two years ago and I think they are starting to become defective.  The plumber will replace the main vents on final inspection. They also appear to be somewhat clogged. Any other advice regarding skimming the boiler.







Thank you!!!



Zev

BobC

File sizes

Some of the newer cameras are high resolution and create very large file sizes, lower resolution pictures might be better. Also make sure there are no spaces in the file names.



I agree that if the manufacturers piping directions were not followed then it was done wrong. Further skimming is probably required but don't bother if the piping has to be done over. Is the pressure set to 2 PSI or less?



Bob

Fred

Still no pictures

Even though we still don't have pictures, there are some things from your post that raise questions. First, as a rule of thumb, the header should be at least one size larger that the riser coming off of the boiler, so if the riser is 3", the header should be at least 4". It would have been much better (if the boiler has 2 riser plugs) to have had two 2.5" risers going into the Header.As far as the riser being 24" above the water line, that is a minimum and should work OK (but the header is too small). It would have been much better if your plumber had installed a drop header. That allows for much dryer steam.

Given we don't have pictures, we can't tell if the equalizer pipe coming off of the header is correct or if the Hartford loop is properly installed. It clearly sounds like he may not have boiler the boiler out to get rid of the oils from the new boiler and piping, nor did he skim the boiler. It will never act right until that is done and it may take several skims to get all the oils off of the surface of the water. You indicate you skimmed about five buckets of water off. I assume you did that from the upper skim port and that you did that very, very slowly. You just have to let the water trickle out of that port in order to not create turbulence inside the boiler and keep the oils on the surface where it can slide out the skim port. It takes several hours to do it correctly, at least 5 or 6 hours. When I need to do it, I usually attach a garden hose and start the trickle before I go to bed and let it skim over night till I get up the next morning. Of course you need to do that at the end of a heat cycle (when the water is hot) and when you can shut the boiler down for the remainder of the night. 

I would make sure he puts adequate main vents on your mains but I wouldn't change any of the radiator vents until you get the boiler/piping/main vents correct. The hammer you hear is most likely water being drawn up into the header or wet steam in the mains.

ChrisJ

Piping

I just glanced at the pictures as I'm getting ready to do something but from the looks of it it doesn't look piped too bad.



However you need a skim port.  The yellow hole on the side with the gauge glass is where this port belongs.  Have a look at the pictures at the link in my signature and you will see what I mean.  Without this port you cannot get the oil out of the system.

718KW

Please critique oil to gas conversion

Hi Nicholas,



I was finally able to post some photos to show you exactly what I mean.



Any recommendations will be appreciated. .Maybe there is a relatively simple cost effective way to make changes that will improve the steam system, that the plumber will be willing to do.  I think he might feel obligated to increase the header size as the minimum size on p 17 of instruction manual is 2.5 inches. He used 2 inches. The riser is three inches ... Not sure what each should be.



Thanks



718kw

718KW

photos

thanks Bob,



I lowered the resolution and was able to post photos.



718kw

718KW

skim port

Thanks Chris,



I'll check this out and review it with plumber



718kw

Fred

Header

I agree with ChrisJ, the equalizer and Hartford loop look pretty good. You do need to have that skim port installed and the header should be one size larger than the riser from the boiler. It looks like it is one size smaller.

SWEI

Header sizing

is worth addressing while he's there.  You really should have a 2-1/2" or 3" header feeding those two 2" risers.

718KW

header

Hi Chris,



Thanks for reviewing photos. You say piping not bad too bad. Weil Mcclain recommends at least 2.5 inch header and riser. The header used by plumber is 2 inches and the riser is three inches. So you think the main focus should be skimming impurities and the piping is okay.  and eventually replacement main vents and radiator vents might help as well.  I don't think the plumber will be too keen on changes so I want to approach him with the reasonable changes that will improve my system.



Thanks



718 Ke

Steamhead

On that boiler

I would install a 3-inch riser and header. The cost difference isn't that much and it will do a much better job of drying out the steam.

718KW

header size, flushing system

Hi Steamhead,



First offs, regarding my EG 45 undersized header I will ask my plumber to replace 2 inch with 3 inch header, per your suggestion.. That is the cheapest way to increase dry steam. But I truly admire you steam aficionados. I think ideally I would prefer two 2.5 inch risers from the boiler and a 3 inch drop header recommended by Chris J, or Fred's recommendation for a 4 inch header. However, the plumber will not be happy with any changes and I think I might be able to persuade him to give me a 3 inch header..



 Is there a place, perhaps on the Internet that I can purchase insulation for risers headers and elbows?  



I just read Dan's column on clogged return lines. I don't think they will clog as the portion near the boiler that is always immersed in watert, that tends to rust the most, was changed out to copper. So perhaps, in spite of Dan's advice I don't need return line flush lines. Dan recommends gate valves on return lines just before hartford loop. Right before gate valve Dan recommends a tee with a full-size, full-port ball valve. My steam pipes and radiators are from 1915. There is a lot of rust inside, so in spite my new EG 45 I am going to get  a lot of rust. My plumber says to flush out the system every two months during heating season. I am going to be left with lots of rust. The plumber is concerned with the salts in water doing more damage than the rusty water. What is your take on this?How often do you recommend flushing the boiler? 



Regarding the skim port, if I can get my plumber to install it, my understanding is to attach a hose and let it drip over night to remove oil from the new steam pipes. I guess at a certain point it might be worth plugging that up.  In the past I had a manual float low water shut off that I purged once a week.



 I will now rely on the automatic feed and low water cutoff that comes with the new boiler. But I am concerned without me checking it out it may fail. Is there a good way to ensure that both are working properly?



Thanks!



718kw.

ChrisJ

Sizes

I personally went with two 2" risers into a 3" header. I went with two 2" risers over a single 3" as I felt it would perform better.



I would try to get any rust and sediment out of the system you can but I wouldn't clean the boiler more than once a month or two my self.



In regards to rusting of the boiler itself and salts in the makeup water, after running my EG-45 for a year I started running Steamaster water treatment and never looked back. All of my rust problems are gone and my boiler water is always clean. It is however extremely important that you get your water clean before adding treatment. All oil must be completely gone.



This is a video I made of skimming the boiler.



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150591529896253&l=629707585283452060



After skimming six times I finally made a wand like Gerry Gill uses and washed the boiler via the skim port opening. This is what finally got my water clean for the first time. I connect it to the drain on my water heater so most of the water I get is fairly hot.



https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u5NtHE5Ogoo/UnGfNOdXnNI/AAAAAAAAB7w/zsGPNVT1-u8/w1012-h759-no/DSC03682B.jpg



This is what my boiler water looks like today and I never worry about rust or makeup water. I drain the boiler twice a year and occasionally wash it with the wand just to make sure I get any sediment laying in the bottom out.



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oopV17rqCKg/U1Bwj05e0hI/AAAAAAAACNA/7xOXBdu8BP4/w423-h759-no/IMAG0535.jpg



A lot of guys are against water treatment but I will continue using it without a doubt. I just can't stress how important it is that you get your boiler clean first. If you go with Rectorseal Steamaster tablets don't follow the instructions on the bottle as they are wrong. Use one to two tablets at the most. I'm currently running two.

Steamhead

That would be the easiest way

just use the existing 3-inch riser, since it might be difficult to get it out of the boiler, and continue from there with 3-inch. That boiler is small enough that staying with a single 3-inch riser should not result in a high enough exit velocity as to pull water out of the boiler. You also want to ascertain that the riser height is at least 24 inches above the highest possible waterline, higher if possible, which will filter out any water that does get into the riser



You should be able to get insulation supplies from online vendors like Patriot Supply, PEX Supply or State Supply. The big-box stores don't sell insulation in these sizes.



Flush the boiler out if/when it gets dirty. One way to do the returns is to remove the main vents and run a hose into their piping, draining the dirty water out before it gets to the boiler. After flushing, run the system enough so all the water in the system is boiled and condensed, to drive out all the excess oxygen. Running it until the returns get warm all the way back to the boiler should accomplish this.



In general, you need to heat the boiler up before skimming. This will make sure all the oils rise to the top. See the boiler instructions for details, also check out Dan's take in "The Lost Art of Steam Heating". Letting it drip overnight would let the boiler cool down too much.



If the new water feeder is a Hydrolevel VXT, just watch the digital display to see if the system is taking on too much water. The probe-type low-water cutoff will need to be checked once a year, to see that the probe is clean and that the control works as it should. You'll still want to check the water level once a week or so to see that it isn't getting too high or too low.



Hope this helps.

Fred

Header and Skim Port

Don't under estimate the need for the best header you can get. You will be living with this arrangement for a long time. Your plumber needs to replace that header anyway and should agree to doing that. If he agrees, offer to pay the difference in piping cost to get a 4" header. It's not going to cost that much additional and will provide much, much dryer steam. Two 2" risers would have been better but the one 3" is OK, especially if you go with a 4" header. A 3" header is also OK but that piping needs to change anyway so get what will work best.

As far as the skim port is concerned, have the plumber install that with a full port ball valve or a coupler and plug on the end and plan to leave it there forever. It may take you several skims to get to get all the oils out of the boiler the first full season of use and after that, anytime you need to have any of the piping repaired or replaced, anywhere on the system, from boiler to radiator you will likely introduce some oil into the system from the new piping and at those times, another skim will be in order and that port setup is important for as long as that boiler is in operation.

718KW

Final decision on header

Steamhead, Fred, Chris J , and the rest of you heating steam aficionados are  totally amazing.



Steamhead, I have been following your comments the longest of anyone, so your opinion is particularly important to me, and also your recommendation is what the plumber will  most likely follow, if he acts at all. .



In fact it was your recommendation that motivated me to email my plumber asking for the 3 inch header upgrade (which he originally promised twice on earlier dates). Fred feels a 4 inch header with the 3 inch riser will give me much drier steam than the 3 inch header. I don't want to push my luck, in fact I don't know if he will change the header to 3 inches. But if I offer to pay him extra (which is only fair)  do you think it is worth it asking for a  4 inch header., since he would have to re pipe anyway?



Now regarding  the riser. It is 24 inches from the middle of the glass gauge to the middle of the header at the point the header and riser meet. However the header is not level. It  slowly tilts down as it goes from right to left so on the the far left side it is only 23 inches above the middle of the water line.  I don't think the plumber will want to raise the riser so I am not asking him to raise the riser.



I just want to focus on what he most likely will do that will give me much drier steam.



Regarding the steam port,

Weil Mcclain customer relations says the plumber is required to skim the boiler and it gives a diagram on page 10 on where to attach a skim port, so it appears the skim port is a requirement of the job. So hopefully he will agree to that without additional charges. I can skim the boiler myself if he shows me how or I can just follow the very helpful instructions by Chris J, but I need the steam port. He did provide me with two drain ports, but it appears I need the skim port higher up to the right of the gauge glass.. Once again my plumber might give me a hard time about the skim port. Is it absolutely necessary, or could I get away using  the  two drains valves which are quite a bit lower to the left.? Should this be part of the initial job or is this an optional request, which I should offer to pay for? I am not asking what to pay as that is not allowed, just whether it should part of the installation.



Thanks again,

718kw

Fred

Skim Port

The skim port is an absolute must. It should have been part of his normal installation and only entail a six inch length of pipe pipe and a Ball Valve or plug. If your pressure Relief (Safety) valve were mounted on the side, you could put a Tee on there and use one end of the Tee as a skim port but this boiler has the relief valve mounted on top which is not good for skimming. You can not skim using the lower drain. The reason the skim port is at or above the water level is so that oils, which will rise and sit on top of the water won't be flushed out when you drain water from below. It will simply stick to the side walls of the boiler as the water level lowers and float again when water is added.

Regardless of whether you go with a 3" or 4" header, your plumber will have to remove that reducer elbow on top of your Boiler riser to replace it. He has virtually no additional work to add a coupling to the riser and a 4" nipple to raise the Header. If he increases the size of the header, he will also have to shorten the pipes that go up to your mains so making them an additional 4" shorter to accomodate for the 4" he added to the boiler riser should not be an issue or any additional work for him.

718KW

Header issue

Hi Steam mavens,



The plumber  will install a skim port but will not change the header.  I tried to persuade him by siting the  installation guide which says the minimum recommended header size is 2.5 inches. I hope you don't mind but I also sited your opinions but he is adamant he feels he did it correctly and will not change the header..



 I am supposed to get an inspection from Con Ed and the Dept of Buildings. Would it help to mention the header issue to the inspector?



Any suggestions at this point.



All steamed up!

Fred

Hopefully he will notice it???

If the inspector doesn't make notice it and recommend it be changed before he gives final approval, I would certainly bring it to his attention and have the installation manual handy for his review. If you leave it that way, I suspect you will have problems with wet steam and maybe even some boiler short cycling due to pressure from the near boiler piping. When all is said and done, if it's not changed now, you will probably have another plumber redoing it down the line. When the manufacturer provides a "minimum" requirement, it is just that, the minimum and something less than that may even affect your boiler warranty. Best of Luck getting this resolved.

ChrisJ

Interesting

So he is so sure he did it right even though he didn't install a skim port on a steam boiler. That's basic knowledge even a dumb homeowner like me knows.



Now I do recall something confusing about the EG manual in regards to it having two lines for 3 boilers, I think EG-35,40,45. I'm going 100% off of memory but I want to say it looked like you could use a 2" header on it, but somewhere else in the book it stated 2.5". They had like 2 different lines in the chart for some reason.



For what it's worth, I doubt the inspector will know or care about the header size. I know mine wouldn't have and I've noticed a lot of inspectors pass piping that is completely wrong. I think it's ridicules he won't upgrade the header if you're willing to pay for it.

KC_Jones

Seems pretty clear to me

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets/pdf/EG_Boiler_Manual_Series5.pdf

page 17 lists 2 1/2 inch header size.

Also from the Weil Mclain site is this, not sure what people opinions are about this good info I think.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/warranty/550-141-053_1011.pdf

Look at end of first page beginning of second page "what is not covered" this is F(3):

"Installation not done in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions"

That's the kind of stuff that would worry me.  His header size is clearly not correct per manufacturers instructions so if something does happen Weil Mclain has grounds to deny the warranty, unless I am reading something incorrectly.

Just another homeowner here.

Fred

Header Height

I noticed in these installation instructions that the height of the header is to be a minimum of 24 inches from the NWL (Nornal Water Level which is 23 and 13/16 inches from the floor) TO THE BOTTOM of the header. That means the bottom of his Header should be at least 47 and 13/16 inches above the floor.  I believe 718KW says his is 24 inches from the mid water level in the glass to the middle of the Header. That Header should go up, in my opinion probably 4 inches to be on the good side.

ChrisJ

Old manual

Good thing I saved a copy so I could prove I'm not crazy.

Also glad to see they finally fixed the manual.



As far as I know, the center of the gauge glass is the NWL on the EG series. I think the bottom of my header is something like 30" above the NWL, however I also have a drop header.

Fred

Bottom row of numbers

The bottom row of numbers is for the PEG model. I don't know what the differences are between the EG and PEG models but it is good that they clarified their installation instructions.

ChrisJ

PEG vs EG

There is no difference, PEG means packaged so that can't be what they meant.

KC_Jones

I read it that way also

Yes to the bottom of the header.  I would have to guess based on what I have learned from this site that his undersize header could be more of a problem then the height being off by a couple inches.  That being said neither is very good and to match what the manufacturer says both should probably be resolved.  As a homeowner if I am giving a contractor my hard earned money to do a proper job that is what should be done a proper job and I think the contractors on this site would agree with me (based on what I read from them).

KC_Jones

lol

Chris I have read a lot of your posts on here...you aren't crazy!  And yes that is a crazy way for them to have done the manual!  I wonder how many they had installed like that before somebody caught the mistake?

Fred

Agreed!

I totally agree. Get it done right the first time and enjoy it thereafter.

718KW

undersized header

I called customer Weil McLain customer service. She checked with chief engineer who says minimum header should be 2.5 inches. I shared with him the quotes of all of you  helpful folks on heating help.com.  He does not care what Weil McLain says or what everyone on this site says. He insists he did the correct installation and refuses to increase header size.  Weil McLain suggests contacting BBB and Atty general. The oil to gas conversion was not cheap. The instllation looks neat and professional but the header is inadaquate (according to Weil McCalin chief engineer), and to everyone on heating help.com.   Everyone on this site is very knowledgeable. However, since this plumber is so obstinate, is there any licensed plumbers out there who can explain to this plumber in plain English why this header is going to give me problems and how to motivate this guy to correct the problem.  Maybe Dan Holohan can get him to change his mind.



Thanks,



718kw

[url=http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http://www.pinterest.com%2Fheatinghelp%2Fpins%2F&ei=r7tgU9DXE-aosATQooHgDA&usg=AFQjCNHPd5xr3SSZoRe9kikRcWK6UkZpqg&bvm=bv.65636070,d.cWc]

KC_Jones

Wow

Doesn't care what the manufacturer says?  That is just crazy to me.  So if he buys a new car does he try and redesign that because he thinks he knows better than the company that spends millions on R&D?  The smartest people I know typically have 2 things in common, admitting when they are wrong and admitting they don't know everything and want to learn.  This guy doesn't seem to have either.  I think Weil Mclain's suggestions are good.  You honestly want this guy to fix it because getting a new contractor will just cost you more money.  If it was me I would politely explain to the contractor your next course of action to get this corrected and see what he says.  If he still won't budge then start calling people about him.  Just because he has been doing something a certain way for so many years doesn't mean he has been doing it right all those years.  Good luck with this.

Fred

Time to change tactics

Have you paid this guy in full? I hope not. If you haven't, it's time to tell him you will not pay the balance until he does the job to the minimum spec the manufacturer requires and that you don't care how long he has been doing work, you want yours done right. He obviously has no regard for your concerns, why tiptoe around his feelings.We all hate to be confrontational but every once in a while it is necessary and this is one of those instances. If he wants to take you to court, tell him to do so but I can assure you when he sees you won't back down and he knows you have documentation that spells out the manufacturer's MINIMUM requirements, he will come around. If you have paid him, in full, that is very unfortunate and you may want to get another plumber in there to at least tell you what it is going to cost to change the piping. In the end, you may need to write this off as a learning experience and move forward with getting the pipes done right by raising that header and increasing its size. Not something you want to hear but you can report him to the BBB and, if you have the time and money, take him to court. In the end, I am sure you'll win a court decision, I'm just not sure the time and expense makes sense. Probably cost you much less to fix the piping, both in time, aggravation and money. Please keep us posted on how you make out.

ALIGA

where ru located?

Queens, BK?



I guess you did not utilize JSTAR?