Sight glass "empties" when boiler is firing

Bryan_T

I had a new one pipe steam boiler installed this past November.  (Crown Boiler)  I hired a recommended a local plumber and it all seemed fine after the install.  I am getting really high gas bills so I took a look at it when it fires up and noticed that when the boiler comes on the water in the sight glass bobs then quickly goes down to empty and soon after that the low-water shutoff shuts the boiler down.  The water comes back into the system and the boiler fires back up and the whole cycle repeats itself.  I asked the installed to take a look and he scratched his head and noticed there were no main vents, so when it fired up again he held the high pressure blow off valve open to see if anything changed.  It still emptied and shut down, same as before.  So he recommended putting in a check valve at the wet return to keep the water from forcing its way into the return lines.  He seemed unsure of what was happening so I figured I would ask the pros here if there is an obvious answer to steam pros that my guy just doesn't know. 

Thanks for any advice!

Bryan

Philaelphia, Pa

Mark N

Empty Boiler

Post some picture of the near boiler piping. Sounds like the water is leaving the boiler with the steam. If you have the install manual compare the boiler piping to what is recommended on the manual. If you don't have it, it is available on line.

Bryan_T

pics of near boiler piping

Here she is...

Paul S_3

boiler

Boiler is piped completely wrong. ... There is no header. .. The equalizer is undersized which could be the problem. ... You needa total repipingby a good steam pro.there's a bullhead tee right above boiler. The piping should come a minimum of24" above the top of boiler. ... The return is piped incorrectly.. Where are you located? Thanks Paul s

Joe V_2

Not good

Take a look at your boilers instalation manual.  You should be able to find online if you dont have it.

Bryan_T

Where am I located?

I live in Philadelphia, PA. 

Paul S_3

call

Thatcher heating and air conditioning. ...I believe they go out there. ... You can find them in the "find a contractor"section above Paul s

Bryan_T

Thanks

Paul S.  Any advice for how to proceed with the installer on the improperly done work?  It's a reputable company and I spent a lot for the boiler/install and I'd like to think I could recoup some of that cost or is that just wishful thinking?

Paul S_3

Tell them

Is not installed by the manufactures specifications. And I hate to say it but any plumber that pipes a steam boiler like that had no business working on steam systems.... The manufacture will state a minimum of how it should be installed. ... And that's not even close Paul s..... The pic below shows a steam boiler piped at what the manufacture States. ... Most of us on this site pipe our boilers worth drop headers. .... It's a better way to achieve dry steam... most manufactures do not state this set up.... But it's the wayi would pipe all steam boilers

Paul S_3

and

This is a drop header. ... which is that special piping arrangement that most of us use Paul s

Paul S_3

side

View

icesailor

Installation instructions:

Had the installation instructions even been taken out of the brown envelope and looked at?

If the company is a "reputable" company, and they call themselves Steam Pro's or installers, I'd be calling the owner and demanding that he PERSONALLY come look at your install and tell you if it is correct. If he can't see anything wrong with it, take the loss and get another company. Like the one recommended here.

I don't consider myself a Steam Pro or expert. Even I can tell that it is totally wrong. A case of Check Valves won't solve that problem.

Possibly, that is a new employee and he claimed to know what he was doing.

He didn't. The owner or service manager should have come after the first call to check it out.



IMO.

Bryan_T

So,

would you recommend having a steam pro like Thatcher come and do an assessment and send that assessment to the installer and ask them to pay to make it right?  I've never had work done improperly where I needed to confront a contractor before.



I guess I'm just asking if anyone has been involved with telling another installer they did a job incorrectly (which nobody likes hearing) and worked with a homeowner to make it right. 

Fred

Just llay it on the line with the installer

Armed with the manufacturer's installation guidelines/diagram and a quote from a good steam contractor, lay out what needs to be done and what that will cost to make things right. ALSO, have the new quote include a good boiler cleaning and skim. I'm sure the installer probably didn't know that needs to be done on any new install. Otherwise the oils in the boiler will cause the water to bounce like crazy and even push out of the boiler like you are seeing. BUT, the most pressing issue, for now, is to get that boiler installed correctly.AND, no copper above the water line.

Paul S_3

if

I came I would give you a proposal for the work. ... Then if you want you can send that to the other contractor. ... From my experience any work I have corrected resulted in the customer just paying me, forgetting about the other contractor. ... or they took them to court. If they really don't know steam and they know they messed up then they should do the right thing. ... But very few people do the right thing. Paul s

Bryan_T

Thanks

for all the help.  Sent an email to Thatcher to come and take a look.  (Thanks again for the recommendation Paul S) Hopefully with that I can get this resolved.

Paul S_3

Your welcome

Goodluck Paul s

Mark N

Boiler Install

I've seen many poorly piped boilers on the wall over the last few years. These question should be asked of prospective installers.

1. Do you own a copy of The Lost Art of Steam Heat?

2. Have you read it?

3. Have you attended a Dan Holohan steam seminar?



If the answer to the above is no, I would show them the door.



Also since the installer of this boiler was a knucklehead, I would not doubt the boiler was not properly sized and it should be checked. The boiler has be sized by the EDR of the installed radiators.

vaporvac

Just a homeowner...

Im just a homeowner and even I managed to pipe my boiler better than this!!! What is the problem reading the instruction manual? Probably the manufacturer won't warranty it with this piping so perhaps you could use that as ammunition. i would start off nice and not put their back up against the wall. Others have posted with similar problems and were able to have the installer repipe correctly in steel. The drop header is usually in the manual as a "best" install practice so you might have to pay a bit extra to get that done and I WOULD pay extra. My install has them and it's working amazingly well.

I would post any plans here first to make sure it's going to be done correctly. (Unless Thatcher does it. We're all learning from his installs).

Colleen

Charlie from wmass

well I have to admit I never went to Dan's class

I own many of his books but not The Lost Art of Steam. Just saying Dan's question list maybe the best this to stick too.

Charlie from wmass

read this

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/323/Boilers/296/Why-Did-the-Water-Leave-That-Steam-Boiler

Mark N

Qualifications

Charlie, I assumed you learned your trade from your father. Your reputation gets you work. Maybe installers should carry pictures of previous work and letters of recommendation from previous customers.



It is absolutely insane that people are paying lots of their hard earned money on shoddy installations. Then they have to fight with their installers to make it right. I blows my mind that the people putting in these boilers don't even open the installation manual. I've seen picture of installs by homeowners that blow away the installs of "professionals" that do this for a living. The lack of pride of workmanship is criminal. If you can't or don't want to do it right, be honest with the homeowner and walk away.



Its time for the manufactures of boilers to put a sticker right on boiler jacket showing the proper piping diagram.

nicholas bonham-carter

Highly recommended plumber

All through the year there are pictures of improper installations here, with plenty of problems.

The thing they all have in common is "done by a highly recommended plumber"

And so recommended by whom-neighbor, coworker, fellow church-goer?

Unfortunately, most people wouldn't know if the job was done properly or not, if they have no decrease in in performance from the previous state of operation, "hey, it's steam, what can you expect?"

This situation makes this website even more important for people to visit before the work is done. Also, it makes it more important for qualified installers to register themselves here.--NBC

98chaos

Bryan_T

Since you live in PA, please review the info on the Attorney General's website:



http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/hic.aspx



Read the info under "Home Improvement Law" and "Frequently Asked Questions"



Home improvement contractors in PA MUST abide by certain rules.



You may have some leverage against your contractor.



(1) Is he registered? If not "Any home improvement contractor who is not registered is prohibited from offering or performing home improvements. The failure to register is a violation of the law and unregistered contractors face legal action, including civil penalties of $1,000 or more."



(2) Did his contract include the required information?



Much more info on the web site. I know of contractors in my area who got huge fines for not following "the rules".



And yes, in PA plumbers are considered Home Improvement Contractors.



In any case, you might have some leverage against this company so that they would rather fix the problem than to create a larger problem with the state.



That being said, perhaps they are a reputable company in other aspects of the plumbing trade. Be polite, but educate yourself and be firm in your requests.

Pughie1

Vanishing water

The first time I saw Dan write about this was in the October 1992 issue of Fuel Oil & Oil Heat -- "When The Water Line Vanishes From That Little Steam Boiler"

John Pughe

Jason_13

Bad piping

I would not chase one contractor against another. Get the manufacturer involved. They'll do a job site visit and can talk to the contractor about what needs to be fixed. With that said they cannot make the contractor do anything. Just advise.

Dennis Foley

Get the manufacturer involved

The manufacturer doesn't want this boiler to come back to them as a warranty, and doesn't want to be bad mouthed, when it's the installer that caused it. Get them involved. If it is a reputable company the manufacturer may get after them. I've seen it happen.