First time homeowner - need help understanding my steam heating system

Jay4334

I have a 1941 stone colonial with a recently updated steam boiler. Bought the house in April, and while under contract I fought with the bank (foreclosure) to have the 1940's VW bus of a boiler replaced prior to closing. After plenty sleepless night, everything fell into place for us and we finally closed on the property. First issue I noticed was when we were away for Thanksgiving. Came home to a 48- degree house, as the low water cut-off kicked in. Problem was the fill line wouldn't fill, so after one very cold night, I noticed the back-flow preventer was on backwards. Problem solved. Now since that time we have been burning through oil like crazy (atleast I feel we are), at about 230/gal month for the past two months here just outside Philly. The low water cut off kicks in about once every 2-3 , and I just noticed the main air vent spitting out steam/condensation today. I have a two pipe system, 10 convector radiators with a trap on each (one of which is bad, since I have never gotten any heat from it but the supply side is hot). I was wondering if anyone can help point me in the right direction as far as making my system more efficient. I believe I read a main vent that expels steams and condensation needs to be replaced, is this correct? Any feedback/insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

nicholas bonham-carter

Funky piping

Download the piping diagram for that model boiler, and compare the required piping arrangement with what you have. Go over it with the installer, and! you will see that the piping is wrong, and will just shoot water up into the system instead of dry steam.

If the installer is unable or unwilling to correct things, then use the find a contractor button here, to get a steam pro in to reinstall the boiler, following the manufacturer's instructions.

Until that happens, keep your pressure as low as possible, and install bigger main vents on the dry returns.

Getting some of the steam books from the shop here would make it possible to judge the skill and knowledge of any installer you meet.--NBC

JStar

Steam

First, congratulations on owning a steam system. Once it's up to par, it is the best heat available.



All of that copper needs to go. All of it! The copper will quickly destroy all of the iron molecules in the system and you'll be replacing the boiler every 5 years.



The main vent is on the return which should never see steam. Sounds like you have more than one bad trap. It would be wise to replace them all at the same time. Or even better, ditch the traps and install orifice plates in the convectors. Install a Vaporstat at super low pressures, and you'll be almost guaranteed to reduce your oil consumption.



The flue connections are also suspect. Is there a water heater as well?

Hap_Hazzard

Also

You should not be relying on the automatic water feeder to maintain the water level. The LWCO calls for water only when the level is dangerously low, and this should not be happening on a regular basis. When large volumes of makeup water are run through a cast iron boiler you get accelerated corrosion, and when the water level is allowed to fluctuate, it induces metal fatigue in the boiler sections. If you're losing that much water, you obviously have a leak, and it's not only destroying your boiler, but the water might be doing some mischief wherever it is leaking out of your pipes.

Jay4334

Hap-

Hap- I do have a small leak on a second floor radiator inlet valve, which is leaking about a cup of water every 2-3 days. I have not noticed any other leaks, is there a method to finding/sealing them? The other "leak" would be the steam blow off from the main vent. ...I do not have an auto fill system, but lately have had the LWCO sensor shut the system every day or two due to low water. When I notice this happen the water is only about 25% of the way up the sight glass instead of at the water line marked at the half way point. Any advice? Could the LWCO be jumping the gun on doing its job? Also, I worry about fixing the leak at the radiator as it is in my infant son's room and Im outside Philly were it has been pretty cold as of late. Where else could/should I look for leaks? Thanks again

Jay4334

Joe

Thank you.



I haven't yet touched the insulation around the main supply line, but I believe it is all copper. As I mentioned in my original post, there was what I believe was the original boiler in working condition when we first came across this house. Re-piping EVERYTHING with black pipe doesn't seem practical, and seemed to work for the first 70+ years this house has been standing. I could only imagine the cost to redo all the piping. One would assume close to having a forced air HVAC system installed to replace the boiler



Yes, the flue is also attached to a separate oil fired hot water heater. What seems wrong about the flue connection?



Cannot seem to find much info orifice places. Any ideas of cost comparisons on traps vs orifice plates? I have included a pic of my current traps on each radiator

JStar

Steam

That copper is not original. I guarantee that 100%. It's a sign of incompetence and lack of knowledge from previous contractors mangling up this system over the years. We repipe total/partial systems all of the time in situations exactly like yours. Like I said, either the copper goes, or the boiler goes...and often.



For more information on the orifice plates, read a few articles here:



http://www.heatinghelp.com/search/results?search=orifice+plates



The parts cost is a lot less than upgrading trap elements, though the labor is about the same. You can also run the boiler at a lower input because the plates nearly eliminate all of the pick-up factor needed on start-up.



For the flue, the water heater will need to enter the chimney first. The way it is installed now, when the boiler runs, it may prevent the water heater from exhausting properly. Each appliance should (ideally) have its own draft control as well.

BobC

Look at your chimney

If you have to fill the boiler that often you have a major leak somewhere. Do you have any buried returns in the basement? If you don't, the leak could be inside the boiler into the firebox.



Go out and look at your chimney while the boiler is making steam and under some pressure, if you see a large plume coming out of your chimney you may have a lek in the boiler that is falling into the firebox and turning into steam. If your in doubt, look at the neighbors chimney and see if your plume is larger than theirs.



Bob

Jay4334

Bob

No burried returns, basement is unfinished.



Turn the thermostat up so the heat kicked on and went outside to check the chimney. However, is snowing windy and I have a fire going in the fireplace, and none of the neighbors had anything coming out of their chimneys, so it really wasn't the best conditions for checking that possibility. There was white smoke coming from my chimney, but I have never compared it to others, and from the look of it, did not really seem out of the ordinary. Any other possibilities? As I mentioned previously, I do know of a small leak on the inlet vale of a radiator on the second floor, about a cup per 2-3days. In addition to that there is the steam coming from the main vent valve (not sure how much water that equates to). When I fill (intermediate off /on of the fill valve after system has been sitting, to avoid shocking a hot boiler with cold fill water), I would say it on takes about a quart or two of water before its back to the middle of the sight glass. Also, I believe sometimes when I open the valves on the site glass the water level fluctuates - reason? Really appreciate all the comments and suggestions on this thread.

Jay4334

Nick

I have the manuals from the system in the basement...I will look into that. What is sticking out to you as being incorrect?



How do I know what size vent to replace the current air vent with? What about the main F&T trap? Any books you recommend? I would love to find a competent local steam guy, but so far that hasn't happened. Very new to this all. Thanks for the help

nicholas bonham-carter

Reason for having the boiler changed?

Was there some good reason for having the old boiler changed as a part of your sales agreement?

Did you choose the installer, or was that done by the bank? If you have now to rectify a bad installation, then is it the bank's fault or the installer?

The boiler has been badly installed, in such a way as to continue giving you problems with water-hammer, and uneven heat. The boiler will need to be reinstalled, and may not even be the right size for your system.

As any remedy for these problems may be hard to achieve, then let us try and help you to make the best of a bad situation. Many people here have repiped their boilers, and finally everything works.--NBC

Jay4334

Joe

Could you contact me directly and ballpark prices for me? I see you service eastern PA...does that include just outside Philly? Thanks.

Jay4334

Nick

The previous boiler was ancient (honestly the size of a SmartCar), and I felt if I could push for a new system instead of dealing with any issues it had/might arise I would be better off. The bank's repair vendor installed the boiler, and pulled permits with the township. I didn't have a say in model or installer. I highly doubt I would have any luck trying to get the bank/installer to correct any issues 9 months after closing. Suggestions?

Jay4334

Steam vent and boiler video

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/103328026914516063244/albums/5971587997409317553/5971587999057085762?pid=5971587999057085762&oid=103328026914516063244

nicholas bonham-carter

At least they pulled a permit

I would think a letter to the installer, with copies to the city inspector, and bank might get some changes made, so it conforms to the manufacturers installation instructions.

Do not listen to any "I've been installing boilers for 40 years, I don't need any boiler-maker telling me how to do my job"--NBC

BobC

Replace the vent

Depending on how long your steam main is that vent should be replaced with a Gorton #1 or Maid O Mist #1 if it's 15 ft long, or a Gorton #2 if it's a lot longer. If your in between you could use two of the smaller #1's. The Gorton #2 (1.1cfm) vents almost 4X faster than the #1's (0.33cfm) do and costs about 3X what the #1 does.



With a new boiler you should not have to worry about a leak in the boiler but I would keep an eye on the chimney just in case. Fix any leaks you can find in unions and valve stems, if you have a number of them they can add up. In the meantime make sure you bring the system up to steam anytime you add water, that will drive off any oxygen in the water.



Next get someone to start working on the piping (after the winter) to get rid of the copper patchwork because it will kill that boiler over time.



Bob

Jay4334

NBC

I read through the installation manual and it looks identical to the diagram. The length of the header is maybe 4-6" shorter than the picture, but there length is not a specified dimension. I've included pictures of the diagram and the spec chart on the side of the boiler. What do you see that is out of place? Thank you.

Jay4334

Joe

Were you able to check out the link I posted for the video of the main vent and boiler running? The main supply line feeds 10 radiator around my house, it runs around the perimeter of the basement (so does the return) and the supply/return for each radiator( 1st or 2nd floor) runs up the outside wall from there. The mains wrap around the basement and end up adjacent from the boiler, about 6' away. The main F&T trap is located just off the condensate return riser, and the main air vent is less than a foot before that (pictures from original post show the setup). With that being said, I would think the total length would be close to 100', but I could measure later.



Thanks.

BobC

That is a lot of air to expell

You will need lots of Gorton #2's to handle 100 ft of mains unless there is main trap someplace. Remember a 3/4" pipe will only handle 4 gorton #2's and a 1/2" is good for 2 and change..



Bob

conversiontime

lot of water to lose on new boiler

In the video it appears water actually pushed out the vent near the end so assume maybe some water is getting pushed up into the mains. The riser does not necessarily need a drop header if piped with swing joint, but that riser  lacks either. Additionally on steam boiler the A dimension is important so the floor to waterline and waterline to header measurements need to match install guidelines. As Joe mentioned copper in steam outside of returns will damage the boiler b/c it does not allow for expansion/contraction (vs black pipe). Therefore every time the boiler fires the expansion stress normally placed on black pipe goes right to the boiler block/sections stressing it and leading to early failure.



Even with that vent and the bad trap, you seem to be losing a lot more water than normal. At the end of the video you show the boiler and there is a repeated stuttering noise. Almost sound like water hitting something and then turning to steam--so as Bob mentioned if you see no leaks on returns then possibly the water is leaking in the boiler. One way to tell is to remove the jacket and overfill the boiler and look for leaks. The white vapor test works best on a warmer day so you do not confuse with standard vapor.

vaporvac

Not identical...

Well I wouldn't call that exactly identical: take a look at figure #7. The riser comes out of the boiler and swings over. It even states "Pipe as shown to provide swing joint". then it 90s over into the header befor the take-off to the mains. Yours does NOT do this. It swing over, but doesnt 90, instead going directly into the mains take-off.I'm also just a

homeowner, but that is the first thing I see when I look at the diagram vs. your install.

I also would give-up on the bank/installer making good due to these discrepencies. I would hope there's some guarantee for this mechanical system either to you or the bank. C

Jay4334

vaporvac

You are correct, I actually noticed that earlier today when I went down to take a second look at the pipes. I will try and see if the bank/installer will do anything, but were so "as-is, where is" with everything to begin with, I could only imagine what coming back 9months later with an issue will net. Cant hurt to try.

Jay4334

Additional questions regarding my system

Could someone tell me how hot the return main should be? The first 30' of the return main is pretty much warm to the touch...As I mentioned previously the is about 95' of steam main running around the perimeter of my basement gradually sloping down and the return line follow the same path/slope as the steam main. The first half of the return main is not that hot, however the last 30' of the return main is VERY hot, and will burn if touched. Out of the 10 radiators in the house 6 of them are on the last 30-35' of the 95' loop. Is this the reason this section is SO hot? The return pipe is 3/4" all the way around, but the last 15-18' was replaced with 1" pipe when the new boiler was installed. Any ideas?



I have a decent temperature difference between main level and 2nd floor. Ive read with a two pipe system you can control the heat to an extent by closing the inlet valve on the radiator slightly. Would this just allow less steam/heat upstairs if I partially closed valves on 2nd floor and force more steam/heat to the main level radiators? Or, is it just heat rising, and closing the valves upstairs will only help lower the warmer temp upstairs?



Lastly, could someone tell me what type of trap I have on my radiators(attached a picture). What are my other options for replacing traps? I have one radiator that does not get hot beyond the inlet pipe, and another only heat up about half the radiator. Of course they are both nearest to the thermostat which causes the boiler to run more than it needs to. Thanks again

JStar

Jay

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