Still hissing after all this...

Gary_24

Hi all,

I'm at my wit's end; been working on my home's one pipe steam system since i bought this house almost 9 years ago. Single family, attached row-house, 60+years,(weil mclain boiler approx 15-20), basement +2 floors, flat roof, all brick/masonry.

Had hissing/gurgling, banging since I moved in. Started researching, learning etc from this website, books, etc. Here's whats going on;

I've been told a few times the boiler is slightly over-sized for the house to begin with.

Approx 30ft insulated main only vented on end opposite of boiler(front of house)

A few out of the 7 radiators in this house are problematic:

Replaced the main vent(cheap hardware store) with a Gorton No.2 a couple of years ago; because of clearance/space issue with the first-floor joist's i had to put it on an approx. 15" piece of pipe almost parallel with the main, facing rearward. This helped somewhat. I recently had to replace that one because it started rattling and became noisy(Gorton suggested replacement). I decided now to make an "antler" setup with 4 Gorton #1's to add to it(photo attached). I attached the No 2 to the end of this setup. The main has a 1/2" threaded nipple coming out of the top of the elbow so I put a union here to attach the "antler" to it..

The largest radiator in the house is in living room(thermostat room) currently has a Gorton D(vent for rad size, not location, right?), next to it near the front door vestibule is a small rad with a maid-o-mist(not sure of size but small), this rad has always been very quiet.

Kitchen dining room rad (first rad directly above boiler)has always gurgled and hissed no matter what vent size, currently maid-o-mist 6.

Top floor Master bedroom directly above this(i assume same supply pipe) is currently Gorton#6 still hissing somewhat/ light gurgling and makes an "exhale" sound that i assume happens when boiler shuts off.

The bathroom adjacent to this room is a whole 'nother story: previous homeowner remodeled and they recessed radiator into wall; radiator is shut off since i think they did the piping incorrectly to recess it and it "spits" and hisses so noisily that i just kept it turned off all these years.(tried all vents and shimming it, etc) I have an idea for this: either disconnect the radiator altogether and install a Gorton No. #2 here to act as a sort of main vent that should be, but isn't, at the near boiler piping? Or can I install the Gorton No.2 or No.1 after the shutoff valve(or before) and keep the rad connected then turn it on?

The two other bedrooms up here, the larger one which is directly above the living room has always hissed(same supply pipe?); recently put on a Gorton#6 and this helped quite a bit.

The smaller bedroom above the vestibule radiator(same supply) has never really been a hisser either and is Ok with a maid-o-mist.

I have cleaned this system many times during these years with various products, scout, etc., most recently with two Surgemaster's then drained and refilled with 8-way which seems to help a lot with the water bounce in the glass. I also have a Wika 3psi next to the standard 30psi; it goes up to about 2.5psi(bouncing) with the pressuretrol set at the lowest possible cut in and cut out settings.

Mark N

Hiss

What is the size of the boiler and what is the EDR of your attached radiation? Also posts some pictures of your piping and boiler. Also your not not sure if rads share the same pipe. How many take offs and riser do you have coming off the main. Is the system parallel flow or counter flow?

BobC

Pressure?

How much pressure are you running at, getting it low will help everything. You might not be able to tell what the pressure is on a 30 PSI gauge, adding a 0-3 PSI aux gauge would be helpful.



I read your post again and it seems you already have a 0-3 but your pressure is too high - get it down to 1.5 psi or less.



 It also might be worth using slow vents on everything and then just increase venting on radiators that need it.You can get maid o mists that come with 5 orifices so you can change the vent rate easily.



Bob

Gary_24

lower pressure

Thanks for reply...my pressuretroll is set at its minimums.. how can i get the pressure to get lower?

when you say using slow vents on "everything" are talking about just the rads?

Yes, i know about changing the orifice's; i have a collection of the little caps from over the years.. The only rads I currently have the maid-o-mists on are the two quiet rads; vestibule and small bedroom above it.

Any thought's on the bathroom radiator and my ideas for it?

Gary_24

boiler pics

her are pics of boiler and piping... btu input is 125000

Gary_24

risers

Thanks for the reply and help. I'm not a plumber so please excuse my ignorance;  a mechanic here. The far end of the main has 3 risers coming off of it going to living room, vestibule and two 2nd floor beds.

Boiler end of main has 2 risers only; feeding kitchen, 2nd fl master bed and adjacent  inoperable 2nd fl bathroom rad. Any thoughts on my ideas for venting the bathroom rad so i can turn it on?

Jean-David Beyer

Imagination, not seriously recommending this.

One way to use a pressuretrol instead of biting the bullet and getting a vapourstat would be to put a pressure doubler or tripler between the system and the control.



It would be pretty simple: a large piston on the steam side and a small one on the control side. If the steam side had double the area of the control side, the output pressure would be double the input.



I doubt these are made, though a really good machinist might be able to make up one. And I worry about reliability. Probably would require neoprene O-rings, etc. And the last time I priced machinists, I imagine buying a vapourstat would actually be cheaper.

Mark N

System Pressure

The pressure at which a steam system operate is determined by:



1. The size of the boiler.

2. The size of the pipes.

3. The amount of load(radiators).

4. Main Venting.



If the boiler is to large the pressure will be high. If the pipes are to small the pressure will be high and a bunch of other issues. If the main venting is too little the pressure will be high. But over venting rads can cause high velocity steam to enter a rad not allowing the condensate to drain. This will cause spitting vents and water hammer. A pressuretrol or vaporstat is only a pressure activated switch. A vaporstat can be installed to cut out your boiler at a lower pressure, but it won't cure what is causing your boiler to run at too high a pressure.



If the Net EDR of your boiler is well matched to the amount of radiation in your system, and the boiler is properly piped and the mains well vented, you would never see more that a few ounces of pressure.

Mark N

Boiler

Is your boiler a Weil McClain EG-45? Its Net EDR is 392 sq ft of steam. Determine the EDR of all your radiators. Then you can determine if it is a little or a lot oversized. I have a recessed Sunrad in my bathroom and it is vented with a Gorton #5. It works without any issues. Also if you have 2 rads connected to the same riser you need to determine if the riser is properly sized to handle the 2 rads.

BobC

Hissing and gurgling

gets worse as pressure goes up. Pressuretrols are made with the quality of a Yugo if you are lucky. If you take the front cover off of one you will see a very small setscrew that can be used to trim the setting. Just be warned that if you do adjust it you have to sit and watch it for a couple of heating cycles to make sure it turns back on or does not fall apart - real quality there.



Aside from the pressure being to high it sounds like you have some badly sloped piping, all horizontal piping should be checked with a level along the entire length to be sure they slope back towards the boiler. be sure the radiators are all sloped towards the steam supply as well.



It's usually best to start with lots of main venting and slow radiator venting. You can try adjusting the vent rates of any problem radiators one at a time after all the rads are set to vent slowly. fast radiator venting can cause problems.



Do the radiators all tend to get hot at about the same time?



Bob

Gary_24

Still hissing

I'm starting to think that having an over-sized boiler, no main venting on boiler end piping and keeping the upstairs bathroom radiator shut off are the main causes of my problems; air on this side of the main has no where to go but out only via the two radiatior vents.

All the radiators in the house do get hot pretty much at the same time and evenly though.

Gary_24

Recessed rad

I think whomever did the recess, did the plumbing incorrectly; looks like  too many elbows and turns possibly after the shutoff valve but i can't do an anything about it unless i start making holes in the adjacent wall and/or floor.. Can I put a Gorton #1 or 2 here on a, tall vertical nipple after the shutoff valve,right before the radiator?

Mark N

Main Vents

The main vents should be at the end of the main after the takeoff for the last rad right where either it drops to the wet return or where it turns to become the dry return. Don't understand what you mean by boiler end main venting. You have 4 Gorton #1's and a Gorton #2's, you have plenty of main venting. I would try to get the bathroom rad to work. How are you heating the room with the rad turned off?

Gary_24

main venting/ 2nd fl bathroom rad

Yes, my main venting setup is pretty much exactly the way you describe it should be.

Shouldn't there be any main venting at the boiler end of the main where it comes out of the boiler? This is where the two risers branch off to supply the kitchen and 2nd fl master bedroom; I assume the bathroom rad is fed off of the bedroom rad since there are only two pipes coming up from the basement.

We've been heating the bathroom all these years from the in-ceiling mounted exhaust fan/electric fan heater

Mark N

Venting

There should be no venting of the main right above the boiler. The vents are at the end so steam first travels to the end of the main first, then up the risers to the rads. You might have a sag in the pipe feeding the bathroom rad and water has pooled there. See if you can lift up on the supply piping and get it to drain.

BobC

At the end

Venting on a single pipe steam system should be at the end of the steam main so that the air can exit and make room for the steam, steam will not go into a pipe filled with air.



If that bath radiator is off the same riser the bedroom radiator is there is a chance the run from the split to the radiator in the bath is pitched wrong. Check the radiator with a level to be sure it's pitched towards the steam supply. Did you ever shim under the bathroom radiator? How well does it heat if you install a D on it aside from the hissing and spitting?



If the pipe in the floor is pitched wrong a second vent at the radiator would probably do the same but if you put it on the end of a length of pipe it might not be as objectionable. In the end you have to get a look at the piping under floor to know whats going on.



Bob

gcp13

calibrate pressuretrol

sounds like you need to start with fixing the pressuretrol

set up a tester for the pressuretrol

and adjust the set screw to get the cutout

lower. closer to 1 lb. or less

using this tester saves a lot of time

move setscrew at very small increments and test each time

too much and the control will not close on pressure drop

good luck

gcp13

acting like a pressuretrol

if you can't test and set pressuretrol

you can turn the heat up and

have someone watch the radiators

while you watch the pressure gauge

when the pressure gets close to 1lb.

shut the boiler off. turn it back on when the gauge drops

back to 0.

if radiators work better after a few cycles then

you need to invest in a new presurretrol or try to calibrate the old one.

keep in mind a new one set at its lowest .5lb can

still cutout at 3lb.

they all need to be tested

make sure the pigtail is clean

Gary_24

pressuretrol setscrew adjustment

Thanks for info.. i did the test: had someone stay by boiler while watching the 3 psi guage..when it got to 1.5psi the 2ndfl upstairs rads seemed plenty hot.. i then shut boiler switch. Looking down from the top, do you turn the setscrew cw or ccw to lower the cutoff pressure?

Gary_24

pressuretrol setscrew adjustment

Thanks for info.. i did the test: had someone stay by boiler while watching the 3 psi guage..when it got to 1.5psi the 2ndfl upstairs rads seemed plenty hot.. i then shut boiler switch. Looking down from the top, do you turn the setscrew cw or ccw to lower the cutoff pressure?

BobC

Turn it slowly

I'm holding my old one in my hand right now and you want to turn that setscrew clockwise so the switch breaks sooner.



Do it in 1/8 to 1/4  turn increments and see where it trips at and make sure it closes when the pressure drops. If you go to far the switch will turn it off but never let it turn on again.



Bob

Gary_24

pressuretrol adjustment

What do you mean by it will never let it turn on again? If i go too much cant i reverse the adjustment?

BobC

yes you can

You can always get back to where you were. The diaphragm switch link has a very short operating range at the low end, if you go too far the switch won't be able to turn back on. By turning that setscrew the opposite direction you can get back where were originally.



Bob

Gary_24

pressuretrol set

I got it to shutoff at between 1 and 1.5 psi.. all rads seem pretty hot and thermostat reached set temp..so far so good..if i need to add a liitle more psi can i turnup the differential wheel which is at 1 now?

I turned on bathroom rad and you can hear gurgling in the piping going to shutoff valve..

BobC

That would work

But why do you think you might have to increase pressure?



If you are hearing gurgling it may be some of the piping or radiators may not have the right slope OR you might have wetter steam than you think.



Bob

gcp13

Don't stop

Sounds like your making progress. No need for more pressure

You could run your system on a 1/2 lb.

try getting it to shut off around 1 lb.

depending on what pressuretrol you have

That maybe as low as you can get it

gcp13

Water trapped

By the way if your closing radiator valves

While they are hot you can be trapping water

Then when you open them you hear water going

Back to the boiler

All valves should be wide open

Gary_24

Pressuretrol adjustment pressure

Hi,

I was just asking INCASE I needed to increase the pressure back to where it was for some reason. I assume since the thumbwheel is at 1(lowest) and the front slide indicator is at its lowest, .5 psi setting that this pressuretrol is now pretty much calibrated. I watched it this morning when boiler first fired, it shut down at about 1.25psi and the thermostat reached its setpoint and all rads were hot. YES, GREAT PROGRESS THANKS TO YOU GUYS!

Gary_24

Bathroom Rad piping

It's pretty much just this bathroom rad. I feel certain that the piping to it was done incorrectly during the bathroom remodel when they recessed it; nothing i can do about it; I'm not about to open up the wall and or floor. I have a jacuzzi tub with a wall access panel for the pump; I can see the pipe coming between the joists then it has a 90, then the joist is notched and it crosses over the joist with a short nipple, then another 90 and then it disappears under the floor to the rad about a foot away..