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Howling Wind!

Hello all...



I have a problem and its driving me crazy.  In an earlier post I indicated that I repiped my boiler with a 3" drop header, 24" risers, all black pipe.  Worked it out nice.  Skimmed skimmed and skimmed some more.  Waterline is nice and steady now.  Everything heats up very nice.



HOWEVER (and there always is a however...)



The last rad on the system (which happens to be in my bedroom) vents like mad!  It sounds like I am in a wind tunnel. 



I have about 40' of 2" main and at the end of the main on an antler I have a Hoffman 75, three Gorton 1's and three Gorton 2's.  I threw everything I had at the main in terms of venting.



Pressuretrol is set for 2 psi cut out and .5 psi cut in. 



I checked the main vents and they seem to be working.  I get air movement at each of the vents until they heat up.  I even "open piped" the antler (its on a union) and left it open still I started getting steam and then reassembled and I STILL got the howling out of the rad. 



The rad is not big...24" tall with 27 sections.  Tube type.  There cant be that much air in the rad, could there be?  Its vented with a MOM with the biggest orifice they offer.



I'm stumped.



Any thoughts?  All appreciated.
"Hey, it looks good on you though..."

Comments

  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,937
    Ideas

    1. Make sure that the radiator is pitched BUT not over pitched.



    2. Make sure radiator valve is fully open.



    3.Avoid big setbacks.



    4. Try removing radiator air vent and see if noise stops. DO NOT stand too close to radiator. Steam can burn skin.



    There are some other things you can try. Start with these and see what happens.
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    bn...

    Its got a third of bubble pitch to the valve.

    Valve is wide open.

    I will try the open vent concept tonight.



    One thing that you said tho strikes the inquisitive in me...



    Setbacks:  My system has a conflict of interest on the first floor.  Great room addition on the back of the house has two open doorways into the "main" part of the house.  This is heated with forced hot air.  The steam tstat is in the dining room about 20 feet away from the great room but the heat radiates from the GR into the DR and "ghost heats" the whole first floor. 



    Invariably, the second floor gets too cold but not uncomfortable.  The DR tstat comes on at night after the forced air calms down.  And I know it comes on when the steam main is stone cold.  Maybe I need to move the tstat upstairs or get a new tstat with a remote sensor and leave it upstairs....?



    Thanks for the hints. 
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ALIGA
    ALIGA Member Posts: 194
    location of tstat doesnt really matter

    it is an on/off switch.



    try the other ideas first.
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,937
    Tstat location

    Thermostat location will be a major issue under the current setup. What you might want to consider is moving the thermostat to the second floor and installing TRVs on the first floor radiators to prevent overheating. Not sure if that will eliminate howing but should help balance the temps.



    When you have the ghost heating, are the first floor radiators warmer then the second floor radiators?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    Disagree

    I disagree ALIGA. The location of the thermostat is extremely important.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • conversiontime
    conversiontime Member Posts: 87
    does the vent ever close?

    Could be blown or defective and essentially never closes. But usually such rads hiss like crazy and often the wall paint is damaged with bubbling.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    I agree

    When this is going on feel the radiator near the vent, is it completely heated top to bottom and is the vent hot? If so I would suspect a bad vent.



    Regardless of its age sometimes vents are bad out of the box.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    Quiet the wolf!

    Answering all of the (very helpful) questions:



    1) The rads all get stone cold (1st and 2nd floor) since the "ghost heating" is covering the entire first floor



    2) The vent does close - its all air coming out as I have felt it.  When the rad gets steam it shuts.



    I am just about 100% positive the main vents are working as I get air out of the vents and then they shut on steam reaching them. 



    0-3 gauge tells me system cuts at just slightly under 2 psi so im really believing it isnt a pressure issue.



    Could the "setback from the ghost heating creating the cold system" really be causing the system to generate so much air out of the rad vent?



    Stumped.
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ALIGA
    ALIGA Member Posts: 194
    why would location matter.

    if the tstat is located in a warm room, just bump it up higher until it is comfortable in the cooler room.



    maybe i am wrong, but its a dumb device.
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    Wow you guys are fast!

    Gents...



    Rad does get hot all the way across.

    Vent does close as the air stops when vent gets hot.



    I have a hoffman vent that I might put in tonight to see if that changes anything.  The only reason I took out the hoffman was bc of the "clanking" prior to shutting. 
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    Piping

    How long is the pipe leading to the radiator and I assume the main vents come after that pipe on the steam main? Also what size is the pipe? 1"? 1 1/4"? 1 1/2"?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    Chris J-

    The riser to that rad is the last on the main.  The vents are about 3 feet after that riser.



    2nd floor - guessing 13-15 feet (maybe) of 1.25" pipe from the riser to the valve?



    The main is nestled close to the floor joists in basement and the take off is nestled between the joists and up the exterior wall.  It all looks insulated as far as i can see up the wall cavity (which really isnt that far...)



    The funny part is, in my sons room which is the second to last riser with approximately the same LOA the vent is as quiet as a church mouse with gas...
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    Sizes

    Is your sons radiator around the same size?

    I'd say just for fun, switch the vents between the two. See if the noise follows the vent.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    The boys...

    Rad is slightly smaller in columns (24 vs 27) but otherwise same dims.



    Good point!  I will switch the vents between the rads and revert findings...



    Thanks!
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ChicagoCooperator
    ChicagoCooperator Member Posts: 352
    t-stat location

    I think because it's getting heat from an addition with a different heating system. You could bump it higher, but it's better to move it. 
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    Well after a couple of days..

    I finally got around to swapping the valves. Go figure. The MoM valve was bad. Changed it out and all is quiet now.



    However



    As I mentioned to my wife about moving the Tstat to second floor she jumped all over me to do it. Umm....no go. My pipe chase at the soil stack is now inaccessible due to my air handler being located in attic for AC in older section of house. So I can't run two wire to the second floor from the basement.



    Any suggestions on a stat with a remote sensor that I can mount on the DR wall and leave remote sensor upstairs? I have a one pipe system with a Beckett AFG burner.



    Appreciate all of the input so far!



    Jim
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    edited January 2014
    t-stat

    Is there a location on the 1st floor you can easily move the t-stat to? Anything near the center of the house and away from an outside wall and heat source should work. Mine is on the 1st floor on an inside wall across 15 feet from a radiator so the heat comes off of the radiator, goes along the ceiling and then comes down and hits the t-stat after some time. It actually works extremely well this way.



    TRVs on a few 2nd floor radiators can also keep them in check if need be.



    I know the VP 8000 can use an external sensor, but it too is connected with wires.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
    Wireless Thermostats

    Honeywell makes wireless thermostats. Place the thermostat where you need it. No need to run wires. I was contemplating moving my thermostat upstairs and was looking at the wireless FocusPro at Pexsupply.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    Wireless

    Mark,



    Do you know if those t-stats support multiple sensors? For example, have a few throughout the house and then it makes decisions based on the input from all of them?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Steam_Starter
    Steam_Starter Member Posts: 109
    The original tstat

    Is in the dr on a center wall. My addition is one rather large fam room with its own forced air. It heats the entire first floor even tho I don't have registers in living room, dining room or kitchen. As an example this morning it was a toasty 70 on first floor and 61 on second floor.



    Ultimately a remote sensor on 2nd floor would be best and if first floor overheats I'll put trv's on the three first floor rads....
    "Hey, it looks good on you though..."
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,462
    Ah

    I see what you're saying.

    Yeah, you need to get the t-stat up there some how and TRVs on the 1st floor would be a good idea.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
    edited January 2014
    Sensors

    Not sure, but I do know they make wireless sensors that work with their Redlink system.
  • Mark N
    Mark N Member Posts: 1,115
    Wireless sensors

    The FocusPro doesn't work wit the indoor sensors, but the wireless VisionPro does. It can handle up to 6 sensors. According to the literature it can do averaging.