Are Taco ZoneSentry valves noisy?

martinlk

Can Taco ZoneSentry valves be heard through the radiators when they are actuated?



These valves have a motor that turns a ball valve instead of the old expanding wax style valve, so I'm worried about the noise they make. I don't want to use them if they're going to make noise.



Thanks for your advice.

russiand

I can definitely hear it when the house is queit

I use one on my DHW indirect tank and conventional golden headed tacos on my space heating zones. At night when it's quiet I can definitely hear it close in the basement, from my 2nd story bedroom. I think the piping carries that noise pretty good. 

martinlk

thanks

Thanks for your knowledge.Do you have PEX or copper piping?

russiand

Copper

Copper all throughout, the house is from '76. With pex I think it would be much quiter. Again, it is not that loud the house has to be quiet for you to actually hear it.

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

do have a customer that i installed two of these valves this past fall. He is now saying the valve is vibrating his living room area which is above the mechanical room area.

CMadatMe

Really?

Since the valve is a true full port with no restrictions with a high CV rating unlike others and uses stored power to close is it the valve making the noise or the fact that the zone is unbalanced and your over pumping?

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

There is a check vaive on the first floor return line that was installed years ago when white rodgers zone valves were installed

Thomas_6

Suggest Follow Forum Post Title

MartinLK,

When all is quiet (or not) my boiler circulator (Model Tyco 007F5 which is located in the basement) generates a lot of vibration noise throughout the upstairs baseboard (hot water) heating system.  My baseboard heating system construction is copper.  (Until the problem is solved - and I have worked a lot the last several days attempting to identify the source of the noises and developing correct measures for some noises (with help from The Main Wall), I am reluctant to purchase a (suggested) new heating system consisting of Condensing High Efficiency Gas Boiler (CHEGB) and Indirect Fire Water Heater (IFWH)).  The new system design was recommended to eliminate the current noisy system which also has noisy forced air chimney blowers.  I am hesitant about the claimed "quiet" feature associated with the suggested CHEGB/IFWH because (I believe) the same type of circulator (such as Tyco 007F5 or similar) would be  connected to the output (or input) of the new CHEGB/IFWH.  I saw such as system at a friend's home.  He has 3 or 4 circulators running to service multiple heat zones.  He said, he  cannot hear it (furnace noise -upstairs).  However, his CHEGB system is designed for delivery of hot water to a radiant floor heating network.  In fact, the use of copper (in his design) is limited to a few dozen feet or so (in the basement).  A manifold is attached to the end of each copper run.   Downstream of the manifold(s), the  material switches to pex tubing.  I am convinced that (some) "all copper designs -such am mine"  need (as delta T suggested) vibration isolators.  In summary, the Post Title (Noise from Boiler and Hot Water Tank) might provide comments/ideas which could help all of us.   And, I will certainly follow your posts too. 

Thomas

archibald tuttle

this would be my question

i haven't put any sentries in but i have three on the shelf waiting to go out to a job next week. i am not aware of the entire theory of ops as you indicate closure comes from stored power.  i would have assumed they powered up to open until some stop was hit and then the vice versa, but maybe it has spring and latch and some kind of coil holding the latch?



otherwise i don't see the zone valve itself making noise other than minor during the operating cycle.



and if it is really just a full port valve is it just not throttling flow as much as others so you get aggressive circulation that you 'hear'. would a smart pump of one variety or another possibly help and help with balanced response to loads?

Joe Mattiello

Valves, and circulators

Taco zonesentry valve uses a small motor to open, and close the valve. There is a capacitor that stores energy to close the valve when the thermostat is satisfied.  It only turns 90 degree, and takes a couple of seconds to do that.  It could be considered noisy if the valve was installed on the baseboard in the bedroom next to your bed.  Me personally, I wouldn't hear it; I'm usually exhausted when I lay down, I don't hear anything.  If the valve is installed in the mechanical room next to the boiler, I doubt you would hear it operating for those couple of seconds it takes to open, and close. 

Circulators are also quiet.  however, It's entirely possible to have one that is noisy.  If you can hear the pump running throughout the home, I can assure you that is not normal and should be corrected.  I can certainly help you with that.  Taco pumps are robust, and reliable, but certainly mechanical and could one could have an issue.  That's why they are covered under a generous 3 year warranty against any manufacturing defects. If you need assistance, you can call Taco technical support, or your local taco factory representative.  

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

Thanks joe. Spoke with a tech rep. this am from bj terrnoi co. on this problem. We both question why there is a check vaive on the return line. Homeowner says it was installed years ago when he had a problem with heat from the basement zone would backfeed into the first floor zone. Could this be a faulty pipe install from day one when the home was built ???

Thomas_6

Your valves and circulators Post (27JAN 2014)

Joe,

Regarding your comment, "If you can hear the pump running throughout the home, I can assure you that is not normal and should be corrected.  I can certainly help you with that." 



FYI, I have been posting information (about my detective work) on The Main Wall under Subject "Noise from Boiler and Hot Water Tank.  (My) pump indeed makes a vibration noise.   That vibration noise  can best be heard (at the boiler) by placing the metal end of the screwdriver "on" the circulator and other end (of the screwdriver) "to my ear".  Directly upstairs above the boiler is our bedroom areas.  When all is quiet (no neighbors pounding on the front door, asking me if they can use my driveway or refrigerator - I am not kidding, or when the boiler's gas burner is "off; and just the circulator is "running") the same noise can be heard (without the aid of the screwdriver) in the baseboard heating units (especially, in above rooms both upstream and downstream of the boiler area.  The circulator noise dissipates to "relative quiet" at the opposite (kitchen) end of the home about 50 feet away (from the boiler). 



In a second home, I have a older boiler also with Tyco circulator.  Using the screwdriver technique (again at the boiler), its older Tyco 0007F4 makes a similar noise (when operating).  However the noise the circulator makes in the older home is just a little less in intensity (than the new home).  Circulator vibration noise cannot be heard upstairs in the older home.   



From this information, I concluded that the Tyco circulator probably is operating well (and that its cartridge likely does not need to be replaced - in the new home, 16 years old). 



Next, I observed that when I attached a rigid pipe clamp to the copper pipe adjacent to the circulator, the vibration noise (upstairs) increased.  So, I am beginning to believe that maybe the copper "heating water loop" might be too "rigidly" fastened-down (at least in some places).  



In fact, I observed that the loop's (copper pipe) is (rigidly) soldered (in a few places) to a copper pipe support.   (The support/rod traverses the space between two joists - where the water loop has a "long linear run" between joists). 



I was fortunate to be able to identify and fix a "big" vibration noise associated with the boiler exhaust vent.  The base of the vent pipe was rubbing against the perimeter of the cutout (in the top metal panel).  I fixed the "rubbing" by stuffing high temperature resistant ceramic blanket between the "blower exhaust vent" and the "panel cutout."    



So, I have been having some success (thanks to The Mail Wall responses and ideas). 



I would like to (soon) finalize findings and take some action.  One initial action might be to install (from Delta T's suggestion) a vibration isolator (pipe segment) like one described in "Identified: Vibration Isolator (Flexible Braided Copper) for Heating Loop. 



I have also been posting different configurations associated with new heating equipment (boiler and hot water heater).  One configuration, (especially, if I cannot greatly reduce the circulators' (amplified) vibration/noise (in the bedroom) would be to move the equipment to the opposite end of the basement (and purchase new equipment or not).  



In summary, I hope I have been explaining well my situation (and potential solutions - for your comment as well as others). 

RobG

To Thomas

Thomas, If you can hear your circulator making noise it is not normal. If you put your screwdriver against your electrical panel you can hear it hum. Don't blame the circulator unless it's bad (which Joe stated). Either replace the circulator or find out what else could be causing the noise. A vibration or noise will travel through pipes like two tin cans and a string. You may just have very sensitive hearing, in which case no heating system will do. You should probably find another hydronic heating company (try the find a contractor tab on this site). You will be be hard pressed to find a more silent heating system than a hydronic one.



JMHO

Rob

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

Got a chance to look at this job and did find a swing check valve on the common return line for the first floor zone and the basement zone. The valve is approx. 50 feet away away from the boiler. Homeowners comment is the taco zone valve is making a whoosh sound when it opens for the first floor zone. It will not make the noise if the basement zone is open.Thinking that the check valve should not be in the return line. Anybody have any thoughts on this ???

hot_rod

whoosh

might indicate excessive velocity? If it only makes the sound when only that zone is calling it could be over-pumped.



Does the circ pump have a multiple speed switch? if so try it on the lowest setting. The check in the line should not be a problem unless it is stuck or plugged with crap causing a flow restriction?



A vibration type of noise often indicates something is jammed in the pump impeller, or a vane is broken off. That throws off the balance, just like when you lose a wheel weight on your truck

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

The whoosh noise started this winter after the zone sentry valves were installed to replace the white rodgers valves. Its a weil mclain with a taco 007 circulator. The check valve was installed years ago after the heat would backflow from the basement zone into the first floor zone.

archibald tuttle

why a check for thermosiphon if it's got zone valves?

don't think this really has anything to do with the woosh, but ?



or was the check added and then the zone valves , maybe replacing multiple pumps?



the woosh is only when the 1st floor opens?



are there taco-sentries on all zones?



does it woosh and then stop or constant when that zone is open and circulating.



i know some of this might kind of be up thread, i'll go look, but since you've been there maybe you can refresh my memory.



brian



PS - earlier post said customer heard vibration.  that would seem at least vaguely commensurate with a chattering check .  i think i once heard something like that but too dim in memory.  now sound seems converted to a woosh - which i think is markedly different from a vibration.



maybe if the  zone vale isn't opening all the way for some reason - unknown - the restriction has a lot of flow noise around it that is being transmitted?

hot_rod

so a single speed circ?

is there an isolation valve at the discharge of the circ? If so try closing it down part way and see if the whoosh goes away. Use the pump iso valve as a balancing valve, so to speak.



If it does eliminate the noise you have too much flow velocity. Install a lower flow circ or add a pressure bypass valve.



Good time to upgrade to a delta p circ if the flow velocity is in fact the cause. Save electricity and allow the pump to make the correct flow decision.



A good suggestion above to make sure the ball inside the valve is opening completely. a partially opened ball valve will cause a noise like you describe.

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

Would a ball valve do the same thing as a pressure valve in between the supply and return ???? There are no isolation valves on the circulator. Will take the powerhead off of the basement zone valve and leave that one open this week sometime.

hot_rod

suspicious

of the check more than the ZV. Swing checks need a bit of flow to push them wide open and prevent the flapper from vibrating. They should really be sized for flow rate not by pipe size. Could be the flow rate has changed somehow and the check is not opening completely?



I prefer a weighted flo-check or hydronic specific spring check. The checks like you see in circ pumps these days have a soft seat, and a cone shape to the valve, so the flow path is smoother and they close softly on a rubber seat.



Swing checks are great for sump pumps and sewer ejectors, however



Usually a pressure bypass is only required for systems with many, maybe 4 or more zone valves and systems with small micro zones, pumped with fixed speed.



A PAB works a lot like a pressure relief valve on a boiler or WH. It has a spring and a seal and seat. As pressure increases in the system it slowly opens and allows some "slippage" A PAB will have a scale to help you dial in the point where the seal starts to lift from the seat and allow bypass. A fairly simple device really.



But with a flat curve circ like that, generally flow velocity noise is not much of a problem?



Keep trying, nothing worse than a noisey system, especially when you are trying to sleep. Once you have a noise it really bugs you and you become hyper sensitive. A hydronic system should be very quiet, that's one of the biggest selling features compared to fan based systems.

archibald tuttle

hey, what about swing checks for condensate pumps?

>Swing checks are great for sump pumps and sewer ejectors, however



but this goes back to my original question.  why is the check there [now]?



if you've got a zone valve, unless there is some really odd bypass piping how could it thermosiphon anymore if you have a zone valve?



So Hot Rod thinks from a technology standpoint the check is more suspect for the noise. On the other hand it was the installation of the sentry that made the noise noticeable.  maybe with the sentry being full port, if the old zone valve was more restrictive it just increased the flow which made the check as restriction more noticeable or hit some sympathetic point on its sonorous curve.



I'd get rid of the check since I doubt it's necessary.



presumably one test of my theory would be to throttle a gate or ball valve near the boiler but that could create its own noise but you would hear it shift anyway and if it diminished the existing noise it might suggest that increased flow through the sentry was setting up some kind of harmony with the check (or some other element in that loop)



This is where you need some kind of frequency detector for sound in the metal that can give you a direction towards its source.  in air that is pretty easy. you just use these two ears you have and whichever one hears it louder, that's is where it is coming from (few exceptions for reverbations and whatnot but allow my a convenient example).



I've got an electric fence checker that finds faults using the strength and flow of current and gives you a direction to grounds and weak connections.  Don't know precisely what the analog for sound would be, two long stethescopes with a different one in each ear and the plates applied to the piping as far apart you can reach?



brian

hot_rod

tough to troubleshoot noise via the www

one mans swoosh is another mans hiss. Keep eliminating variables, or go back to square 1

keith_27

taco zone sentry vaives

Going to remove the powerhead from the basement zone valve and leave it open. will return after it warms up some around here. The customer only concern is he is afraid the system is going to blow a solder joint apart.

icesailor

Whoosh!!

I've heard that noise on systems where positive shut-off zone valves were placed in the discharge end of flow checks like B&G SA-1 1/4's where they isolated the expansion tank. When the valve closed, there was no place for expansion or contraction and I decided that it was the section of pipe equalizing. I never gave it that much thought. I solved it by leaving the flow check open. That worked for me. If the check isn't needed (it sounds like it isn't), remove it and see what happens. I don't think it is dangerous.