One-Pipe Main Venting

Ten Swamps

Greetings.



I have been reading this fabulous board for a while and now have a few questions for you experts.



Our house in Tenafly, NJ, bought a year ago, was built in 1927.  It has a one-pipe, parallel-supply steam heating system that is out of balance.  From reading “Greening Steam” and following some of the discussion here, I know there are quite a few issues that need to be dealt with.  The cut-in at the boiler pressuretrol is set at over 4 PSI, with a cut-out differential of 1 PSI, so it looks like the counter-clockwise screwdriver should be applied.  The main venting needs attention as well, and I suppose this should come first, before the pressure can be lowered.  Both of the main vents, pictured below, are hidden behind drywall encasements and have not been accessible for maintenance for years, although a new boiler was installed only two years ago.  One of the vents was painted over and could only be found by cutting through drywall and some insulation.  I assume that neither of the vents is working.



The first two pictures show the end of the long main, which runs about 62” from the boiler along three sides of the basement.  After the last riser, the return pipe can be seen dropping down at an angle through drywall, with the main pipe continuing, in reduced size, into an elbow and then rising a few inches into the vent.



My first question is whether this setup is workable.  Or does the vent need to be moved to a position between the last riser and the return drop, as seems to be ideal?  I want to replace the vent, presumably with a Gorton No. 2, but would not want the new vent to be destroyed by water hammer quickly.



The other pictures show the assembly at the end of the short main, which runs about 41” from the boiler along two sides of the basement, ending a few feet from the end of the long main.  A riser branches off a few inches before the end of the main, where an elbow leads down at an angle into the return pipe along the wall.  The elbow, which actually is slightly embedded in the wall, has another, smaller elbow attached to it that points upward.  The small elbow has been plugged, making it look like an appendix.  I would guess that the main elbow was tapped at some point to install a vent here, before someone decided to remove the vent and plug the pipe.  There are some dark streaks running down the white wall near the plug that could be from rusty water that may have spewed from the old vent.  On the other side of the main, a few inches down the return, a pipe goes straight up that has a vent on it.  I am guessing this was installed to replace the vent that used to sit on the appendix before it was plugged.



I have a couple of questions here:



1) Is it ok to have the main vent run from a return pipe like this?  Or does the vent need to be installed on the main pipe?  Note there is not much space on the main between the last riser and the elbow into the return.



2) If it is ok to have the vent on the return line, how should one go about installing a replacement vent?  The pipe is so close to the wall that I am not sure a Gorton No. 1 would fit.



Sorry for the many pictures with views from odd angles.  The pictures had to be taken through small drywall cutouts.



I realize that all of the piping is uninsulated.  I will have questions about that later.



Any insights would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

Ten Swamps

One-Pipe Main Venting

Looking forward to any feedback as I imagine these main vents could be tough nuts to crack.



Also, I would be grateful for any recommendations for steam contractors around Tenafly in eastern Bergen County, northern New Jersey.  A "Find a Contractor" search for New Jersey did not turn up any hits in my area.

JStar

Venting

Well, you're on the right track. Venting is critical. Those old vents could definitely use an upgrade.



I service all of NJ. Call or email any time.



Cell: 908-337-3133

j.starosielec@ecuacool.com

Hap_Hazzard

Contractors

Joe Starosielec is not that far from you, and he's one of the best steam men in the business. Considering the time he spends on this forum educating homeowners like me, I never cease to be amazed at how much work he does, covering the territory he does. I think he has a secret army of clones out there driving around in identical green "ecuacool" vans.

Ten Swamps

Venting

Thanks.  Any thoughts on the locations of those vents?  Hope my questions made sense.



There are issues with the boiler and nearby piping as well.  I will post pictures.

JStar

Vents

There is no noticeable difference between having vents on the dry return or directly after the last radiator on the main. As long as the tappings are there, you have a good head start.

Ten Swamps

Boiler and Piping

Thank you, JStar.  This is very helpful information.



Pictures of the boiler and nearby piping are shown below.  Any thoughts?  (Please ignore the thin copper piping in the background.  It belongs to the hot water boiler to the right.)



The steam boiler is labeled as a CAC/BDP model BS2, series PSB-6D.  Apparently, it is a Dunkirk (which is a Bryant, which is a Plymouth?).  In any event, it seems to be the little brother of the PSB-7D on which a posting appeared elsewhere in the forum today.  Steamhead noted for that boiler that it is incorrectly piped with 2" rather than the 2-1/2" required by the manufacturer.  Coincidentally, the two boiler risers and the header of my boiler are piped with 2" as well, although the installation instructions clearly call for full-size 2-1/2" pipe.  How funny is that?



Is this a serious issue?  For what it's worth, I would describe the system as being fairly quiet.  There is no banging or hammering, but only the occasional soft knocking sound that I am guessing is attributable to metal expanding or contracting with temperature swings, putting aside the spitting and hissing from several radiator vents.  I cannot tell, however, whether the steam that ends up in the mains is dry or wet.  Any suggestions?



I also noticed that the two system risers converge into a single main pipe, the long portion of which runs to the left and the short portion of which runs to the right (from the perspective from in front of the boiler).  Is this ok?  My guess is it was done this way because there is a radiator runout from the main between the two risers.  The installation instructions suggest that separate mains with separate takeoffs are appropriate, although it is not clear whether separate takeoffs into a single main are considered a problem.

Hap_Hazzard

Oh no!

Another incorrectly piped Dunkirk!



Yes, the smaller pipe size is a problem. It increases steam velocity which tends to carry more water up into your system. I suspect the only reason it's relatively quiet is that the water level is well below where it should be. That puts more distance between the water level and the outlets, but it's not good for the boiler. f it's skimmed you might be able to increase the water level without running into problems, but you should plan on having Joe replace the risers and build you a nice 3" (or bigger) drop header when the weather gets warmer.

Ten Swamps

Boiler

Thank you, Hap Hazzard.  You have a keen eye, but the water level in the boiler is correct.  That gauge glass in the picture is actually filled with dirty water from top to bottom.  But the boiler is not.  Rather, the gauge was clogged with mud, as I only found out after the picture was taken last night.



At the beginning of the heating season last November, I did a lot of boiler skimming.  Hours and hours of very slow skimming over the course of several days, with the temperature kept just below boiling.  The water level in the gauge glass had been jumping around more than an inch or two, whether from priming, surging, foaming, or something else.  I also did several complete boiler blowdowns to get rid of the dirty water (but bearing in mind that fresh water eats metal).  The water cleared up a bit, though it never looked pristine.  If the bouncing in the glass got better at all, it was barely noticeable.



Then, just a few days ago, something odd happened.  The water in the sight glass dropped very low, then surged to just below the top of the glass.  It stayed there for a while before it returned to the normal level.  I think I observed this mostly while the boiler was not firing.  My immediate concern was that the system had a leak and the automatic water feeder was flooding the boiler.  Everything was back to normal for a few days (if the bouncing around the normal level can be called normal), but then the surge happened again yesterday, this time filling the sight glass completely.  This is when I took the pictures.  I then did another blowdown, which yielded just three or four buckets, but the sight glass remained filled with water.  So I removed the glass, and out the top valve came a glob of black gunk.  I could not tell whether this was oily stuff or just some caked mud.



I guess this raises the possibility that the pigtail to the pressuretrol is gunked up as well.  Should I unscrew it to check?  Not that it would be expected to do much good at the >4 PSI setting anyway.



Any ideas as to what can be done about the dirt and the bouncing water level?  In the sight glass above the water line, there have always been beads of moisture, debris and oily-looking residue.  The glass certainly does not look as if it had been pulled through with a dish rag, although I actually did that once to clean it.  I am reluctant to apply any chemicals as the manufacturer's manual advises against that.



What do others think of the boiler piping?  To be sure, the boiler operation actually seems very quiet to me.  When the boiler makes steam, all that can be heard from the piping around the boiler is a very faint gurgling as though from small amounts of water sloshing around here and there.  Of course, the absence of noise could be deceptive.

BobC

It might be plugged

because it looks like the pigtail is only feeding the pressuretrol (and not the gauge) so if it were plugged the pressuretrol might not be seeing the real boiler pressure.



If you remove the pressuretrol to check the pigtail turn the pressuretrol upside down and make sure the little hole at the base of the brass fitting is clear. It would still be worthwhile addind an auxiliary 0-3PSi gauge but it has to have a pigtail between it and the boiler.



Bob

Ten Swamps

Boiler

Thanks, BobC.  I think I will give it a try with the pressuretrol.



Does anyone else have any thoughts on the boiler piping?

JStar

Piping

Agree 100% about the pipe sizes. Should be 2-1/2" risers and 3" or 4" header, depending on the BTUH output. The steam main is also highly unorthodox. There is no way that the main can be pitched properly the way it's joined together right above the header.



You're likely losing a little bit of heating capacity with this arrangement. Any water hammer? Radiators hissing?

Ten Swamps

Boiler Piping

There is no hammering or banging.  Upstairs, occasional soft, metallic knocking can be heard.  I would have thought this came from pipes that expand and contract with temperature swings.  These sounds are infrequent and do not bother me at all.  There is hissing and some spitting from several of the radiator vents, all of which look old.



I will check the pitch of the mains.



What are people's views on the lack of insulation around the boiler piping and mains?  We've been told this is ok because the basement and the upstairs are part of the same "heat envelope," so no heat is lost.  We have thin wood floors upstairs, and it is true that the heat rising from the boiler and mains helps keep the living room (above the boiler room), the center hall and the dining room (on the opposite side of the house, above those old main vents) nice and toasty, the way my wife likes it.  Also, the larger portion of the basement, separated from the boiler room only with thin, uninsulated drywall, is finished living space.  The only source of heat here is what emanates from the boiler piping and mains.  The boiler room itself is as hot as, well, a boiler room.

Ten Swamps

Boiler Size

In light of the incorrect boiler piping, the lack of insulation, and the apparent inattention to the main vents when the boiler was installed two years ago, what are the odds that the boiler is correctly sized?

Hap_Hazzard

Only one way to find out.

Radiator surveys can be time-consuming if you have a lot of radiators and different kinds, but that makes it more interesting. I only had two different ones--American ARCO and Burnham Slenderized--and they're very similar. All I had to do was count tubes and sections and do the math. I found putting them into a spreadsheet helpful.



What you need to do is identify your radiators, count the number of sections and the number of tubes/columns per section, and look up the EDR ratings. Then add them all up and see how they compare to the boiler.



If you don't have a copy of Dan's EDR book, post some pictures of your radiators and we can look them up for you.

Steamhead

+1

Joe (a.k.a. JStar) is one of the best. Post some pics when he's done!

Ten Swamps

Boiler Main Pitch

In these pictures of the boiler-side main, the tee where the black-painted pipe drops down appears to be the high point of the main.  From this tee, the main pitches downward to the right, towards the boiler, which is about 6 or 7 feet away, and also pitches downward to the left, away from the boiler.

Paul48

Why

is there an air scoop and expansion tank in those photos?

Ten Swamps

Tank

If you are referring to the Extrol tank and the gray thingy above it, those are part of a separate, radiant heating system, which is mainly for the kitchen.  There is no connection to the steam, thank goodness, though I will have questions about the interplay between the two systems later.  Thanks.

Ten Swamps

Boiler Main Pitch

JStar--  as noted above, the length of main from the boiler to the tee where the black-painted pipe drops down has a backpitch towards the boiler.  Also, the black-painted pipe drops into the wet return.  I am wondering why the main would be connected to the return at a point this close to the boiler.  If the tee is the highest point of the main, how could condensate ever reach that point?  Would it be from the steam piston that pushes water uphill from the boiler?  Also, note the slack in the chain by which the main is supposed to be suspended from the ceiling joist.  Does this suggest that the weight of the main pipe rests on the black-painted pipe and the return pipe below?  Thanks.

Ten Swamps

Boiler Size

Thank you, Hap Hazzard.  I did some back-of-the-envelope arithmetic on the radiators earlier that I want to refine.  But I wonder if a customary calculation is even meaningful given the lack of insulation around the boiler piping and mains.  Hope to get some perspective from the pros on that.  I plan to post pictures of the radiators later.

Ten Swamps

Recommendation

Steamhead--  thank you for chiming in.  I am keeping JStar in mind, although I would prefer to have a doctor on call closer to the neighborhood.

Paul48

Knuckle-headed

Your system has been knuckle-headed for years. Your installer just carried on the "not-so-proud" tradition. You need a steam pro. It is beyond band-aids at this point.

Ten Swamps

Knuckleheadedness

Thank you, Paul48.



I really appreciate the feedback from you and all the others here, but would you mind adding some color as to what you think the specific problems are?



I am not interested in band-aids.  What I am actually trying to figure out, step by step, is whether this steam heating system is worth salvaging at all or whether it should be ripped out and replaced with a hydronic system.  And I realize that replacement would mean a gut job.  More on that when this little tour de force that began in our basement continues upstairs.



On the need for a steam pro, I completely agree.  We've already had two contractors over, neither of whom had worked in the house before.  Each came highly recommended as a steam expert.  Each spent significant time looking at the system throughout the house.  And each told us the boiler and its piping looked good.  So there.



This is a terrific forum of pros and enthusiasts.  But so far, we've only gotten one recommendation for a steam guy here, and he is an hour or so away from us in good traffic.  The very fact that it is so difficult to find someone of high caliber in this neck of the woods - a part of the New York metropolitan area where many houses still have steam heat - gives me pause.  Maybe steam heat really is a lost art.



Again, thanks for all the help.

ALIGA

why dont you have a real steam expert take a look

Jstar travels, one hour of travel time is nothing. Have him take a look and then you can decide if you need to rip the system out.



If you are just shopping around, then real experts may be hesitant to review your system.

SWEI

So-called steam experts

should be interrogable over the phone.  Start by reading http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/236/For-Homeowners/1490/How-to-have-a-boiler-replaced-without-getting-steamed

JStar

Travel

I cover a 100 mile radius, and travel anywhere up to 2 hours for steam. We have a few systems installed up in your neck of the woods.



Don't rip out the steam. You'll regret it with less comfort and higher fuel bills.

Ten Swamps

Keeping the Steam

Keeping the steam will likely involve more than not ripping it out. In several rooms upstairs, the steam would have to be put back in. Some of those rooms, including bathrooms, have flimsy baseboards - not cast iron - that do not heat well. Another baseboard is hooked up to the radiant boiler and does not work at all. If we put insulation on the steam in the basement, we would need to figure out how to keep the living space down there warm.

Paul48

Recommendations

Not all recommendations are alike. When you get a recommendation here, it is because of skills proven, time and time again. Joe is always showing pictures of his work here, and it is always meticulously proper. He takes no shortcuts on quality, and when he's done the system will operate perfectly. As it was intended to.He is among a handful of steam pros in the country that could be trusted to restore a more complex steam system to its former glory.The problems with your system are not that complex, but need attention. That's all I've got to say.

Hap_Hazzard

Insulating pipes

If you look at the difference between the gross output or heating capacity of your boiler compared to the net output rating, that difference, about 25%, is what is expected to be lost from the supply piping. 25 cents out of every heating dollar, give or take. Seems like a lot, right?



This assumes your pipes are well insulated. Without insulation you could be losing 30–40%, easily. That seems like a lot to heat a basement.



When I insulated my pipes I did notice a big change in the temperature of my basement. Then I installed a vent damper and it was warmer than ever. I think you'll find your basement stays pretty warm even if you do a bang-up job of insulating your pipes, but if you want to play it safe, you can insulate it gradually. Start with the main branch that has been the hardest to heat then keep going until you're satisfied.

Ten Swamps

Insulation

Interesting that the vent damper has such a big effect.



I like the idea of a gradual approach to insulating the pipes.

Hap_Hazzard

That's right.

I've been impressed not only by Joe's productivity but also the quality of the work he does. There are only a few other steam men of his caliber in the country; most of them are on this forum, and none of them are with an hour's drive of you. The next closest would be Gateway in NYC. They don't specialize in steam, but what I've seen looks good.



I would actually feel pretty lucky to be within an hour's drive of either Joe or Steamhead, but I'm thankful that I've been able to see their work here and benefit from their advice and try to follow the standards of workmanship they set, but I'm also painfully aware that, while they are happy to share their knowledge and experience, they can't give me the skill or the sheer strength it takes to break down and rebuild a steam system the way they do it.



If you're lucky you might be able to find someone locally who thinks he understands steam and whose intentions are good, but finding someone with that rare combination of experience, knowledge, skill and integrity isn't going to be easy. If you do, I hope you'll tell him about this site.

Ten Swamps

Thermostat

I realize that temperature control is not the most pressing concern while a system like mine is completely out of whack, but thinking ahead, what would be a good way of controlling one-pipe heat in a three-story single-family house?  A central indoor thermostat seems a rather crude instrument, even if the location is picked carefully.



Eventually, I would like to be able to adjust the temperature in most rooms individually, especially in bedrooms.  I've read about TRVs for one-pipe steam systems, but wonder if they work as well in practice as TRVs for hydronic systems typically do.

Ten Swamps

Boiler Size

If the numbers don't lie, then my boiler may be undersized.  A bit of a surprise, given that all of the supply piping is uninsulated but the house gets very warm pretty quickly on very cold days.  In addition, several of the original radiators must have been removed, so there is a lot of main piping relative to total radiation.



If I understand Dan Holohan's advice in "Greening Steam" correctly, the appropriate pick-up factor - something between 1.33 and 1.5, depending on how much original radiation has been removed - should be applied to a radiator system's total EDR to arrive at the D.O.E. Heating Capacity (or Gross Output) to which the boiler should be sized.  Did I get that right?  The only numbers that I was able to find for my CAC/BDP [Dunkirk] model BS2, series PSB-6D, are from the attached brochure.  The net rating for natural gas is shown to be 479 sq ft (EDR?), but this reflects a 1.33 pickup adjustment.  Does this mean the boiler's D.O.E. Heating Capacity is 637 sq ft EDR (1.33 times 479 sq ft EDR)?  So for a system of about 500 sq ft EDR total that has lots of uninsulated supply piping so that a pick-up factor of 1.5 might be appropriate, one would look for D.O.E. Heating Capacity of about 750 sq ft EDR in a boiler?  And, consequently, a PSB-6D could be expected to be significantly undersized for a system like this?



I've read Dave Bunnell's 2009 article on boiler sizing.  Maybe nominal undersizing is not such a bad thing under the right conditions.



Radiator pictures and numbers to come.

Paul48

Curiousity?

          All these things are good to know, but get you no closer to having a properly running system. Talking about insulating sagging, improperly pitched, and dripped mains is a waste of time, at this point. TRV's are great, but also a waste of time discussing, at this point. Unless you plan on replacing the boiler, its size is irrelevant, at this point.

         There are countless people that have come to this site, to gain information to do the work themselves.The steam pros here, very generously share their knowledge and expertise.If you intend to do the work yourself, just say so. If your waiting for a steam pro to move in next door. Good Luck

Ten Swamps

??

Are you suggesting to have a boiler re-piped that may be incorrectly sized?



I read Dan Holohan's book, then came to this board, because I want to make informed decisions.  I've also found that I enjoy reading about and discussing this kind of stuff, though one concern is that it could turn into a high-maintenance hobby for the next 30 years.  There is no intention of wasting anyone's time.  Sorry if it is coming off that way.

Paul48

Ten Swamps

        I'm sorry if my post sounded gruff. I am suggesting, what has been suggested right along. You need a steam pro to evaluate your system, as a whole, top to bottom. We all share your interest in this topic.

       

Ten Swamps

No Worries

My wife agrees that I've been spending too much time running around the house with a pipe wrench.  She now calls me Super Mario.



As previously noted, I agree on the need for a pro.  JStar's offer to help is greatly appreciated, as are the endorsements from others here, and I may well decide to take him up on it.

Ten Swamps

System Review

Well, I am very happy to report that JStar has kindly agreed to review our system.  So we will see how everything goes.



In the meantime, due to popular demand, I will be posting some pictures of the radiators.  Any comments are welcome.

Ten Swamps

Living Room #1

On the main floor, this is the first and, I believe, only radiator off the short steam main in the basement.



Most of the radiators are this type.  I believe they are Peerless three-column radiators made by the American Radiator Co.



The Hoffman vent has turned purple after having been boiled in vinegar water.  It continues to hiss and spit, and sometimes leak.

Ten Swamps

Pictures

Some hiccup with posting pictures earlier.  Seems to have been resolved now.