Incorrect Installation Questions

MSolito

Hello,

We moved into a new house last year and ran the old steam boiler for a couple weeks before it overheated, cracked, and needed to be replaced.  The previous boiled worked fine with no hammering.

The new boiler was installed and we started to experience some violent and instense hammering in two of the further rooms.  In looking into this, we discovered that the new boiler was not installed based on the manual.  We're thinking that this may be the reason we're getting the hammering.  Below is a list of ways that it was not installed correctly.  We're looking for any information and advice on whether any of this would be the cause for water hammer.  The company that installed the boiler has been difficult to deal with and insists that the installation job is acceptable.

1.       The top of the close-nipple on the Hartford loop should be 2-4 inches below the boiler normal water line. It is above the normal water line.

2.       Swing joints not used on manifold.

3.       ... and manifold is copper not iron pipe with threaded fittings.

4.       Steam header is only 18 1/2 inch above the normal water line. Should be 24".

6.       Boiler was not cleaned. Manual states that it must be cleaned no later than one week after initial start-up; else unstable water line and carry over into system. (We did do some skimming on our own after we discovered this.)

7.       Unit is consistently below the “normal water line” by a few inches. When not hot, it should be at that line.



We really appreciate any help with this!  We've had to shut off the radiators in the bedroom and bathroom for the past couple weeks to stop the hammering.  And it's been cold!

nicholas bonham-carter

Improper installation

The installation manual for the boiler should have the last word on this.

Download it, and use the piping diagram, and instructions to list the points of incorrect installation. The city inspector will always back up the installation instructions, as well.

Improper piping can shorten the life of the boiler, and use more fuel. --NBC

ALIGA

pics

can you post some pics of the boiler piping, thank you.

MSolito

Pictures.

Hello,

Below are some pictures of the system.

Thanks again!

ALIGA

hard to see the pics

the near boiler piping looks like it was done in copper which is a big no no.

The installer did not follow proper piping instructions. Please call them back in.

nycpa

Copper at Near Boiler Piping

Hi,  I also have copper at near boiler piping.  Was like that when I brought the house.  Its been like that i am assuming since the  boiler was put in in 1982.  Its more than 30 years now and the boiler seems ok, no problems, no water issues.  Is it worth it to address it now and change the copper to black pipe fitting or wait until the boiler needs to be replaced to change it back to black threaded piping?  

MSolito

Copper

The boiler was just replaced so it seems that they would have replaced those pipes, too.

In talking with the installation guys, they basically say that the way they did it okay.  I sent them the above list indicating that it was not installed based on the manual requirements.  It's been lots of back-and-forth with no resoulation.  That's why I'm trying to gather as much information at this point.

Unknown

order those

Order those " the Steamy books combo deal" from this site and after reading them, you'll put those hack installers into shame.. there's only one way to install steam boilers.. the right way..

BobC

Reducer

Not only did they pipe the header in copper but it looks like the used a reducer on the boiler outlet to boot. The manual is usually very clear on what size, what material, and what piping configuration to use. I would insist it be done per the manual and would call the manufacturer if they balk.



Bob

MSolito

Manufacturer

We did reach out to the manufacturer.  Unfortunately they were no help either!

Paul48

Hard To See

It looks like the system riser(s) are off the side of the header? Can you light up that area, and get some clearer photos? Keep the light source at a distance , so you don't wash out the pictures. Get us more angles, and at a distance that allows us to reference the connections. Like those system risers, I can't tell from the angle if they come off the top, or back of the header.

BobC

Terrible

The riser to the main is off the side of the copper header.



That looks like a Peerless boiler, if they won't help this homeowner I guess it's time to cross them off the list of suggested boilers. Nothing worse than a manufacturer that won't stand behind their equipment and make sure it's installed correctly. I would ask for a written statement from them that they will honor the warranty on this boiler in spite of it's being contrary to the piping diagram and then I'd consider small claims court.



If support doesn't give you satisfaction go up the corporate ladder till you find someone that will. I had a disk fail on my Imac last year and I thought it was a manufacturers defect. When support would not help I went right to Tim Cook, I had a new disk installed in that machine in 3 days for NOTHING. Sometimes you just have to be the squeaky wheel.



Bob

vaporvac

Tech Support...

I might also add that it depends to whom you talk. I've found the best information to come from Tech support. They are usually the ones who have designed the boilers and helped write the I&O manuals. I'd go by what they say. Sometimes the Sales people aren't as well informed (sometimes, not always) and may have an unknown vested interest elsewhere.

I noticed Burnham doesn't list a Tech support number on their site and someone else recently was having this very same problem with them.

MSolito

Water Hammer.

This input is very interesting and helpful.

Going back to the main issue-the water hammer-do you think that this incorrect installation could be the cause for the water hammer in the far rooms?  We're thinking it could be one of two reasons: the incorrect installation or the piping on the far rooms needing to be repitched/adjusted.

ttekushan_3

Yes.

One of the things I've seen go wrong with a hartford connection that's too high is that condensate gets held back in the system. If the water rises to too high a level, distant supply lines can flood and create water hammer. This is why A and B dimensions are so important.



So I see two problems. One, the "air born" parts of the system (above the water line) can't deliver dry steam thereby creating a percolator effect and sending too much water into the mains; and two, the high hartford connection puts the top of the return into steam pressure territory since it is so high above the water line, causing the return condensate to stack up in the returns.



Either could cause your trouble. Both? Yes.