Need a steam guy near Binghamton, NY

ColdPerson

If you are or know of any contractors that are knowledgeable about steam who reside around the Binghamton, NY area please let me know.  I've already used the "find a contractor" tool on this site along with search the web with no luck.  System was working fine but now only half the radiators are getting steam and the system is basically flooding itself because the return condensate isn't returning fast enough.  There's also a few other issues.  Thanks.  

Bill_110

Binghamton heating problem

You say the condensate is returning slowly so the system is flooding itself, is this because the water feeder comes on before the condensate returns and adds unneeded water?  Does this happen after the boiler shuts down?  What make of boiler do you have? 

If in the future you are able to find anyone competent and honest to fix your system please post the information here so that people from our steam heating repair challenged area will know.  The area is informally known as the Knucklehead Capital of the world when it comes to heating.

nicholas bonham-carter

You may have to go it alone on the diagnosis

Can you valve off the water feeder, so that there is no new water added? Verify the LWCO to be able to cut off the burner if the water level drops.

Check the pressure, and make sure it is under 1.5 psi. Post some pictures of your boiler and it's piping.

If this is one-pipe, and the air vents on the radiators are making a lot of noise, then add Gorton #2's, until you have enough main venting to allow the air to escape without resistance.--NBC

ColdPerson

Bit of an improvement today...

Bill, Yes the water feeder comes on before the condensate returns and adds water.  It happens after the boiler shuts down.  I have a Williamson GSA boiler.  I can see why this area has that reputation...





NBC, Had the guy who installed my boiler come over today and he shut off the valve so no new water is added.  The LWCO still works.  Pressure I think is set at 1.5 on the dot.  I'm going to post some pics soon probably later today.  I have a two pipe system.





I'll give a little background on my system and an update on what happened today.  System is a two pipe system.  Had an old boiler with asbestos inso on all pipes.  Boiler got replaced with new Williamson boiler and most asbestos inso removed.  No new inso was put back on so pipes are not insulated (I just got Dan's book and know that this is a no no) I'll be insulating them soon just wanted to wait after heat guy showed up today.  As far as I know the system worked great for the previous home owner and I wish they left the old boiler in with the non damaged asbestos insulation on the pipes but they wanted to do a few upgrades before they sold the house to me.  System worked fine for me for a few weeks then the banging water hammer was getting worse and then a few radiators stopped getting heat.  The system would fire up, water would start moving in sight glass, then water would disappear very quickly from sight glass.  LWCO would shut down boiler.  then the auto water feed would feed water.  This is when I basically used a few infrared heaters to heat home and steam system would only fire up a few times a day when it got cold in the house. 



Today heat guy showed up.  He had his "steam guys" on the phone the whole time.  He drained the system.  Pour water down the wet return to make sure that that wasn't clogged up.  Took air vents off.  refilled system, fired up boiler.  Made sure air was coming out of vents.  Then hot water started bubbling out of main vent that is attached to wet return.  so then we went to living room radiator that wasn't getting hot and also upstairs radiator.  He removed both steam traps and the on/off steam valve from both radiators and fired up system.  Upstairs radiator didnt' do much but could hear some violent water hammering.  Downstairs radiator flooded crap rusty water all over.  Shut down boiler.  He re installed all steam traps and on/off valves on radiators then he had a long chat with steam guy.  Not sure what else he did because I was upstairs cleaning the rug.  Fired back up system.  And now all but one of the radiators get hot, the water stays in the boiler instead of getting drawn in the system like it used to, LWCO doesn't come close to coming on, and now I'm thinking that one of the steam traps was clogged and air wasn't being allowed to escape.  I'm still wondering why so much water came out of the pipes on the 1st floor and why water was being taken out of the boiler so fast that the LWCO was coming on.  I've read a bit of Dan's book "we've got steam heat" and I read water gets pulled into pipes for various reasons.  That explains why it was so noisy with the water hammer.  Today when the heat was on there was very little water hammering.  It's been quite the day.   I guess he's coming back because his steam guys said something about installing a vacuum vent maybe?   So that's my story and all the most recent updates.  Sorry for typing so much but there was no other way to sum this up.  I'm going to continue to read my steam book and hopefully find someone who understands and enjoys working on steam to come give my system a check up.  Thanks.

ALIGA

you may need to skim

sounds like skimming is required, that should help the bouncing water in the sight glass.

ColdPerson

He said he skimmed a few times

Skimming removes all the crap that was inside the brand new boiler right?  My guys said he did that a few times.  Well water is crystal clear now in system and it seems like the violent boiling is done, for now.  Not sure how long that will last but I'll keep you updated.

ColdPerson

Installed a 2-way vent on end of main today

When I said in my previous post that he was thinking of installing a vacuum vent it was really a two way vent that will allow air out and air back in when the condensate is returning.  So looks like system is running fairly well now, I still have to insulate pipes and I'd like to turn the pressure down as far as possible, I think cut in is at 1.5 and cut out is at 1 or vice versa.  I need to post some pics because I have a few concerns about one pipe return that seems to be sloping the wrong way.  Hope everyone is staying warm.

Unknown

we can help

If you can post some pictures of your boiler and its near pipings

ColdPerson

Pics

Okay got some pics.  I tried to include everything possible in the first and second pics of the near piping.  You can see the air vent in the back.  The 3rd pic is of cut in pressure.  The 4th and 5th pic have me worried.  That is the steam and return pipe for the bathroom radiator.   The angle of the picture shows a more drastic slop but the return is definitely not sloping back to the boiler.  Also notice that steam trap deal on the return pipe? What is that for? 6th 7th 8th pics are of steam and return pipes.  7th pic is of end of main that has air vent.  That is also where he just recently installed a vent to let air in so condensate can return.  he believes that when he installed new boiler he removed a 2 way vent and only put back on a vent that will let air out, not let air back in, so now I guess we have a "two way" vent going on.  8th pic is of crawl space that still has asbo inso on pipes.  9th pic is another questionable area where remodeling upstairs bathroom made re-piping radiators necessary.  Copper was used and I see that is a no no.  This is also the area where one radiator doesn't work.  If you look at that pic, the pipe to the right is the steam pipe with the pipe to the left being the return.  Now if you look at the next pic, left pipe is steam while right is return.  Now those pipes go to the bathroom radiator that works, but the pipes in the pic before go to a bedroom radiator and that is the one that now doesn't work.  Last pic is of how to install piping for parallel system that came in the boiler manual.  It already looks like my boiler is set up differently but I really have no idea about that so I can't comment on it.  I know I have to insulate steam delivery pipes but what about return pipes?  Also I'm having trouble understanding how picture 7 works.  It appears that that is the end of the main steam delivery pipe and it now has a two way vent on it before it goes under my floor back to the bottom of the Hartford loop.  If that is supposed to be the wet return then why is it at the end of the delivery main and have no returns attached to it?  The returns appear to have their own pipe which is that return pipe that stays up high and goes back to the boiler by the ceiling of my basement.  Well thanks for taking the time to look at my system and read all of this.  Like I said earlier, it appears that the boiler is no longer boiling very violently and sucking up water into the system.  The system is now quiet really but I still here a little knocking near the downstairs bathroom radiator (picture 4+5 (sloping?)).  Upstairs where the copper pipe is you can sort of here activity like hissing gurgling noises.  All radiators except one work (back upstairs bedroom,9th pic).  When heating guy opened up steam traps on 2 radiators and opened air vent on pic 7 and fired up system, radiator in living room spilled out a ton of rusty water, now system works?  Crazy stuff but I'm having a feeling something isn't right still.  I'm sure this is where you guys come in to tell me whats wrong if you can see from the pics.  Thanks in advance for your help and if there is anything else like more pics or descriptions I can give you I'll do that asap.  Thanks.

ColdPerson

Problems started back up again

Well I heard the loud knocking for the first time in a week. I went to all the radiators. The same ones that weren't working before are now not working again. The water is getting sucked out of the boiler and the LWCO is activating. I have the auto feed off so the boiler is not flooding itself. The condensate returns fairly quickly. Not fun. One person said the near piping was bad on my boiler. Any thoughts?

EzzyT

No header on the boiler

From what I can see in the pictures you posted there is header nor and equalizer on the boiler piping. The boiler diagram that you posted from manual is the way it's supposed to be piped your boiler is clearly not piped any where close to that. That one Hoffman main vent isn't enough you'll need more maybe even up 4 of them depending on the square footage of air you need to vent out of the steam main. I wouldn't have the plumber or whatever the guy is who put the boiler in for you come back and do any more work on the heating system

EzzyT

More pictures

Post more pictures of the boiler piping the steam piping and the radiators so we can determine what kind of steam system you have

Steamhead

"The water is getting sucked out of the boiler"

Easy to see why. Not only is there no header, but the steam pipe leaving the boiler looks like 2-inch when it should be 3-inch. So your exit velocity is way too high, and that's what makes the moving steam pull the water out of the boiler.



The manual for this boiler has a piping diagram in it. I'd bet the installers never bothered to read it. You can't fix stupid.

ColdPerson

Pics of system, pipes, and radiators.

I checked the main pipe coming from the boiler and it's a 3"OD pipe. I tried to get you all sides of the boiler and all the near piping. The pics of the basement ceiling show the main and the return running parrell through to the crawl space. The crawl space shows just the main because the return is behind the beam. That main loops around the crawl space then back out to the two way vent installed by the crawl space opening, then down the wall, under the floor, back to the boiler. There's a pic of this if you scroll up to the last pics i posted. Let me know if you need anymore pics. Thanks again for helping.

ColdPerson

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steamedchicago

pipe diameters

When people use pipe sizes here (and in instruction manuals, etc) they mean 'nominal pipe size'.  That's a size that's very roughly the interior measurement, until the pipes get very large, 16" or so.  The outside diameter will always be rather larger than this.  For instance, 3" pipe has an OD of 3.5 inches.  3" OD isn't a standard size, but 2 1/2" pipe is about 2 7/8".   So if your boiler requires 3" pipe, it's undersized.  And it's not done right, either.  It really should be redone.   The manual has a pretty clear diagram, and it needs to be done that way or better.  You're not likely to have a properly working system until that's done. 



Related: the easiest way to measure pipe size accurately is with a flexible tape measure, as used in sewing and tailoring.  wrap it around the pipe, measure the circumference, look it up in a table.  string and such can be used too, but directly reading from the tape measure is much easier.

EzzyT

Repipe the boiler

The boiler needs to be repiped with at least a 3" header and replace the pressuretrol with a vaporstat. 2 pipe steam systems work off of ounces not pounds since they where designed as vapor vacuum systems. Plus insulate all the piping.

Hap_Hazzard

Those radiators are gorgeous!

Did you repaint them?



After the dust settles, please give us the details--and post more pictures!

ColdPerson

Radiators were painted like that...

...when I moved in. I'm thinking of painting them a different color because I read somewhere, probably Dan's book, that metallic paint ,like the metallic gold or silver my radiators are painted, acts as a sort of muffler and lowers radiant heat. Don't quote me on that.



I did want to give an update on my newly improved system for anyone who is bored and would like to read a few lines. I had the near piping re-installed correctly, just like the manual wanted. Insulated the pipes. Fired it up and had the same problem. Drained the boiler. Refilled it. Fired it up. Worked LOVELY. Three days later, water is nasty again and it is sucking water into pipes. Bought Dan's book "the lost art of steam heat" and read a few quick stories that explained how to properly skim the boiler and how to test water to see if it's is good water. I boiled some water on my stove and saw that it was bubbling like it had some soap in it and it just didn't look right. So I assumed that the guy who put the boiler in didn't skim it properly. I followed Dan's instructions on how to skim. (Bought some MEX just in case) Hooked hose up to wet return and flushed the crap out of it, literately. Then I flushed the boiler a couple times. I then filled it back up, fired it up, and voila! It has been working great since. I also learned the trick about looking in the sight glass for water droplets, if there are some it means your boiler is purging because of dirty water or oil. (excuse me if I use the wrong terms). Also Dan writes about a trick about shutting the top valve of the sight glass off and then slowing opening it, if steam just comes in then you're in luck and your system is producing steam and not oily bubbles.(don't quote me on that either,It's along those lines though) I also had a problem when I opened my skim valve when the boiler was violently boiling it would spit out water and air/steam. Now when I open it, steam just comes out. I know you want dry steam and if I'm correct you can't see dry steam. When I open the skim valve it seams wet steam is coming out. That could be because it turns into wet steam that fast when exposed to colder air?



In conclusion, everything looks great so far. I'm hoping that was it with the dirty water and boiler. I'm thinking because the wet return was cleaned and the boiler was skimmed as good as my rookie self could do it that I'll be in good shape for now. Insulating the pipes is a plus as well. Thanks for your help.

BobC

Good to hear

I'm glad proper skimming after getting the boiler repiped solved your problems. Thanks for letting us know how it all turned out.



Bob

DrDomm

Feel your pain...

Wow, just found this site...thought I was the only person in Binghamton struggling with a steam heat system.