Need more BTUs

Steve Kownacki

I liked that title from a previous thread with a similar issue <a href="http://dev.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/86320/Replacing-Copper-Fin-Baseboard">Web Link</a>



Once I started researching today it CONSUMED me! Here's the short of it:



I have a 216 sf dining room with 3 exterior walls, exterior door, skylights and a 5x8' bay window that I calculated the heat loss to be somewhere between 8020 and 9463 using different calculators. I'm in Harrisburg, PA west of Philly. It sits on 2x10s, fully-insulated on top of what was an existing concrete patio. The loss in reality is greater as we let the dogs in and out from this room meaning we open the door around 8 times per day.



When the room was built as an addition, the heating guy put in a 8' strip of 3/4" Slantfin 30A giving me 4880 BTU - nearly 1/2 of what I need. (I'm figuring out all of this in my research today.)



Now, reading that prior thread above, I thought about the 2-tier solution looking at Slantfin LC- and R-series and Sterling Hydronics LCS-10. I don't think my wife is going to go for that "commercial" look. Is there anything else out there more residential looking?



More on the construction of the room:

- The supply/return piping is at each end of the 8' strip and runs under the floor 12' back to the main house. There is NO way to move/modify this.

-The return pipe comes into the basement then is reconnected at the edge of the dining room to the supply side of the kitchen heating element and is accessible in the basement or in the kitchen.



I calculated that I could probably get away with 12-13' of Slantfin 83A.



Now my real questions:



1) I can fit 12' of element on the outside wall, but I HAVE to connect it at the existing connections spaced 8' apart - I cannot move the pipes. Is it possible/advisable to put 180° elbows on the ends of the longer element, essentially looping back to the connections in the floor? And can the piping be UNDERNEATH the element? I see where there is space above the element for return piping but that won't help me.



2) Will those 180° elbows restrict the flow too much therefore making the bedroom loop be "less restrictive" and getting too hot?



3) Another option is simply to add on another 8' of Slantfin 30A to the return side of the existing element and continue along another exterior wall. I can then drill thru the wall into the original house and connect to the supply side of the element in the kitchen. Wife not too keen on this as it will push the china closed into the room another 4".



4) And yet another option might be to put the room on it's own loop with it's own thermostat. That wouldn't be that difficult to accomplish.



I sure hope this makes sense & can sketch it up if that would help. It's actually fun for me to learn this stuff and I had the privilege of seeing Dan's Classic Hydronics years ago as a videographer! But it is frustrating that the design was flawed from the start.



I sure appreciate all of your responses! Happy New Year!

EBEBRATT-Ed

Best bet

Putting it on its own zone is the answer. Sounds like you have done your homework. With a 20 degree delta on the water you get 10,000 btu/ hour/gpm flow so either 1/2 or 3/4 tubing is fine. 1/2" will do 1.5 gpm and 3/4 will do 4.5 gpm.

I used "Stirling Senior" baseboard enclosure with "spirotube" heating element to get high output on a job I did.

Weezbo

i read your ?'s

it is ok to roll the pipe back over or under the baseboard in the existing enclosure.



add another chunk and bring the line back .. i wish there was a way to just draw the solution for you .



it is simple .



where it transitions you change directions run thru the new baseboard and back over the top to the exixting then take two 45's and dive back into the existing baseboard that makes the loop.

as a quick fix ..

you may consider zoning and what not with its own t stat and zone valve ....



placing one heater above the other runs into electrical boxes and what not so i would only recommend that in rooms where there is a short wall with no electrical boxes in it ...

most commercial base board is too high to miss boxes too , so let go that idea too.

habby new year.



*~//: )

Steve Kownacki

BTU of Sterling Spirotube

Thanks Ed.



I'll have to dig more for the Spirotube BTU rating. Are you suggesting that I use the same 8' existing 30A element but on its own circulator? OR use its own loop but upgrade the element to a higher BTU 8' element like the 38A or possibly the Spirotube?

Steve Kownacki

Good suggestions too.

Thanks Weezbo.



I completely understand what you are suggesting about the piping and visualize it.



You are correct about the elec outlets - the bottom of the plates are at 14" and the 2-tier enclosure would come right to the bottom of them (in theory).



Like Ed's comment above, are you suggesting just adding more of the 30A or upgrade it to the 83A?



I think I'm leaning toward creating it's own zone.

Weezbo

i like the idea of an additional zone

that has it's own control of the area . the reason being , it likely has quite a bit different "Signature" as it were . the extra 30 would be good for the sameness type deal . folks like things that when they go to fixing or repairing are the same as the rest of what they are working with . you can buy higher heat out put element always yet, if you really do not need it the comfort might be just as easily met without that .

it saves time and energy finding out what you do not know later on down the road .

Good luck with the new zone .

it warmed up from super chilly to dang near human over the last couple nights here ... why it might even be only minus 2 or so today .! a veritable heat wave around here

*~//: )

Steve Kownacki

83A and a separate zone it is!

Thanks for all the comments. Aesthetically it'll look the best with 12' of element on 1 wall so I'll go with the higher output and make this it's own zone. As it's not that uncomfortable I'll wait till summer to do the work.



Happy New Year!

RobG

freezing?

Steve, is there any possibility of the lines freezing?

Steve Kownacki

warm room

sorry it took me so long to reply, the notices went to my spam.



The pipes themselves are 10" off a concrete slab with lots of insulation and are about 1" under the floor. 3 of the walls are exterior, but the room is open to the rest of house and stays well above 55ºF all year just from air circulation from the warm rooms.