supply value replacement parts

JHprovidence

I need to buy a replacement part for a radiator supply value and was wonder where I could get it. I don't know what it is called but I need the part that is a combination of a large nut and a nipple that connects to the radiator. I would just replace the whole the supply value but it won't budge and I don't want to take the risk of breaking anything with it being cold out side and all.



I would also just buy the supply value and take that part from it if the parts would line up. It is a one inch connection. Would that work? Thank you for any help.

steamedchicago

it's called a 'spud'

It's called a spud.  Spuds are generally matched to the valve they come with.  If it's a newish valve, or you're really lucky, you might find one that matches.  But the spud valve interface doesn't usually fail, and when it does, it's usually the whole valve that's shot.  So you may need a new valve anyway. 



What's wrong?  What won't come apart?  Pictures? 

JHprovidence

main venting compromise

Basically as a compromise with my landlord we were going to add venting before the last radiator. I wanted to tap the main but he did not wish to do that. We were going to go up by removing the valve and put a tee but the value won't budge from the piping around it. Since he could remove the coupling to the radiator. He added a 11/4 tee that reduces to 3/4. This added a pool of water below the vent and there is water hammering. I have tried to change things around. I have tried reducing before the tee to a 1 inch but that has its own set of problems. I thought that even though this is still not right that if I could put another spud on I could at least get rid of the pool of water. I an up for ideas. This is how it was originally.

Mark N

Vents

Why didn't you just tap the boss on the valve side of the rad? I would still do that and get rid of that tee.

steamedchicago

vent the radiator

Mark's right.  Put a vent on the valve side of the radiator.  There is likely an existing port with a plug in it.  If you're lucky, it'll come out.  If it's got a square or hex head you can put a wrench on, you're in better shape than if it's got a screw driver slot. 



If you can get it out, your set, screw a high capacity vent in it.  It's on the valve side, so steam will  hit it quick, and it will shut off.  If you can't get it out or it doesn't exist, you can drill an 11/32 hole in the boss that's visible in your picture, and then tap it with a 1/8 NPT tap. 



I've had both set ups on radiators in my place.  I started with removing the plug on the radiator in my bedroom, and putting a vent (a maid of mist w/ no orifice plate, the main is horribly undervented, and not under my control).  That worked great, except that radiator is the only one not in a cover, so it cools down a bit faster, and the vent opens first, and the vacuum noise woke me up.  I then drilled and tapped a hole on the other radiator on the same riser/runout, and moved the vent there.  That vent is no longer the first on the main to open, so there's no noise from it. 

JHprovidence

I don't know

I do appreciate your suggestions but I have a reason I need to make this work. I am in this predicament because I have an impossible landlord. I don't care to have a three hour conversation as to why I need to drill into the radiator. He won't drill into a pipe I don't think he will drill into a radiator. I have seen people make this set up work and if all possible I would love to do that here.

Hap_Hazzard

That won't drain.

With a concentric reducing bushing in the valve side of the tee, you're going to have about 1/4" of water standing in the tee and the bottom of the radiator. I'd get a new 1 1/4" radiator valve and put the reducer in the bottom and screw it onto the nipple, then screw the new 1 1/4" spud directly into the tee.



It's not easy to get a valve off after it's been there a while because you don't have much room to work. You also need to be careful not to unscrew the nipple from whatever it's connected to down inside the wall. The best approach I've found is to use an open ended wrench on the valve and a pipe wrench on the nipple. Try to get the handles at about a 45° angle, then use a clamp to squeeze the handles together. If the handles are far enough apart, you can also use a turnbuckle to pull them together.

JHprovidence

If I can get this to work

is there any benefit to staying with the 1 1/4 over not making everything 1 inch as it originally was? Thank you for your suggestion.

JHprovidence

also!

I see there is a lot of turnbuckles on the market. Do you have a suggestion as to which one to use?

steamedchicago

how big is the radiator?

IF the radiator is small enough that 1" is big enough for it, there's no reason to use 1 1/4.  Just get a 1", nipple, and whatever reducer you need for the vent.  (1" pipe on a 1 pipe radiator is good for about 25 sq ft of EDR, give or take.).  Since you can't change the riser pipe size, even if it is undersized, just use 1", so there's is no reducer involved.

JHprovidence

27 EDR

Any other suggestion on getting a supply value off before I try this. This is good because there is another supply value that I think is bad in the second bedroom. The problem with that one is before it completely fill with steam it starts having a battle between steam getting in and water getting out. If I don't have it at the right speed it water hammers. Now it just makes slushing sounds, but I think if that wasn't a problem maybe it would get hotter that it currently does. If I can get the first value off I probably could get that one off too.

Hap_Hazzard

Advantages

There are two advantages.



1. Whenever you have a reducing bushing on its side, if water is flowing from the larger diameter to the smaller, some water will be left behind. While this is common practice in radiators, its only because the water can't do much damage to the cast iron, and there's no way to drain the sections completely anyway. For piping, eccentric bushings are the standard.



2. Radiator valves have gotten smaller over the years. The 1 1/4" valve you buy today, other than the tappings, is about the same size as a 30 year old 1" valve.

Hap_Hazzard

I just use whatever I have lying around.

If it happens to be the right size. If not I go for the clamp. In a pinch you can use a piece of nylon rope tied through the eyelet on the pipe wrench handle and the box end of the combination wrench and twisted with a screwdriver stuck through in between. Anything to give you some mechanical advantage forcing the wrench handles together.

JHprovidence

thank you everybody

I don't know what I would do without this site! I have cut the time it take to satisfy the thermostat by over half. Now I just need it to work right.

steamedchicago

there's no need to change the valve

Just use 1" pipe and fittings, same as the valve has.  It'll work just fine. 



Were he replacing the valve, because it leaked, it might make sense to use a 1 1/4 valve, if it got the alignment better or easier.  It might not.  1 1/4 fittings cost quite a bit more than 1".  (The valve I recently bought cost 50% more...)  But he's not replacing the valve because it leaks, he's changing the piping.  Fitting 1" pipe will make what he's got work, and be a whole lot less trouble.

ChrisJ

Water

I just wanted to mention many of my radiators have bushings in them reducing them from 1 1/4" to 1" and they work just fine even with the radiators holding some water.  I had posted a picture of one of them on here 2 years ago and was told it was very common.



My point is if that tee doesn't cause hammering then I would call it good.  I plan on drilling and tapping the boss on one of my radiators to vent the run out just because its the easiest solution.  But since you already did that modification if shes quiet I'd leave it.  The only other issue I could see is water getting sucked up into the vent.  If that happens you'll have to do something.



I found the thread on the bushings.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/142414/Radiator-valve-bushed-down





Hap, I just noticed you had also commented on the bushing thread.  Why do you feel this setup is different than having the radiator hold some water?

JHprovidence

great news

I figured out the water hammer was being caused by a broken vent. I had two verivents so I put the other on and the hammer went away. I know that is not what you suggested Chris but reading your post made me think to do that for some reason so thanks.



My question goes back to what were we talking about and I pose another question. Going from a 1 inch riser to 1 1/4 back to one inch would this cause my steam to cool down a tad before getting in the radiator with that extra 1/4 of water just sitting there?



Finally I found when I could put two verivents wide open before the radiator, even if they cause problems, my whole system started to get enough venting. Since my landlord does not wish to drill into a pipe does anyone have any suggestion on how I can add them in this spot? This can include any configuration change.

ChrisJ

oops

I'm sorry I didn't notice you had a post that said it was hammering.



Not sure on the cooling part. As far as I know the steam should remain whatever temperature it is until it drops below its condensing point at which point it will become water. Unless you're using superheated steam but I don't think that is ever the case in a low pressure steam system.





What I don't understand is why a broken vent would cause hammering.

JHprovidence

it was just one loud hammer

as the vent closed the whole area had one loud bang. When I put the other one on it it stopped. With the cooling question I was thinking all of this extra water was that somehow cooling the steam causing that hammer and maybe leading to a cooler radiator. The more I think about it, the more I don't think my though had any merit since it was the vent causing the issue.



With that being said have any thoughts how I can add 2 vents at the intersection of piping to help this renters need for main venting? I was thinking change the supply valve to a tee, add a straight supply valve to the radiator, go up from the tee about 6 or more inches and add an elbow and add the two vents there. As a reminder this is a counterflow system and this is the last radiator.