Need advice for "rule book" for residents

ChicagoCooperator

Hi, I posted earlier this year about my building's heating system in Chicago. Since then we've found out our boiler doesn't need to be replaced, just that we weren't getting the service we believed we were paying for or was claimed on invoices. Turns out we got lucky and the boiler is in basically good shape (original Heggie-Simplex beast). We've replaced (almost) all of the traps throughout the building thanks to a utility company rebate. Our other, the current issue, is our control system is for the birds (Heat Timer EPU) - it never reacts well to changes in outside temperatures and causes either too much or no heat when they change. It's been suggested that we replace with with an R&D Electronics RD200 system with sensors in units. I still need to figure out if it's a good match for convectors.



My current issue is laying down the law about maintaining the system withing individual units. We have a Trane Concealed Heater system (two-pipe steam), however.... There are some problems caused by lax oversight to individual modifications in peoples units. A lot of people have replaced convectors with radiators, which creates some issues with uneven heating. I've been reading that this is a bad idea, in addition to seeing that valves on radiators seem to also be frowned upon (or am I reading too much into that?). The other big issue, which the board has issued an edict about, is the one-pipe radiators installed on the two pipe system will have to be replaced since they are choking the supply line with condensate (my neighbor nicely compared it to reflux for everyone else).



So, to simplify my question, I'm rewriting our rule book, bylaws or "owner's manual" as we call it and am happy for suggestions about the heating section. My gut reaction is simply "no modifications without board approval" or the like. Anything else I should include?



Anyways, sorry for being long winded...

MDNLansing

Rentals

I don;t own a large building or co-op, but I do have a lot of rentals and have dealt with this multiple times. I always had a problem with tenants modifying the HVAC in my properties. I now have a standard statement that requires all modifications and service calls to originate with me. I make them call me and then I place the call for whatever needs to be done. It's amazing how many people have a "buddy" that works on heating systems and can just make a few changes to reduce their fuel bills by 80%. I have a lot of properties with oil fired hot water systems and after the first $800 tank fill they all wanted to makes changes to tweak the system and make it more efficient. But when they move out the worn out boiler is my problem to replace. Making the tenants call me first took care of a lot of the issues. People only call with service related issues now. And none of them bother to call and ask if Billy Bob can come install a new thermocoule intake manifold vent so they only need one tank of oil per year.



Just don't turn into the DB that makes people live without heat for 3 days because you got too busy to call the plumber. They respect your equipment, and you fix it promptly when it breaks. No one seems to have a problem with it as long as I keep things running and fix issues that arise. Even after hours overtime calls as needed. If you try to scratch a buck out of a nickle they will catch on and ignore your by laws, and you;ll be back to square one.

steamedchicago

board approval

No modification without board approval is reasonable, given that they're making changes to shared common element which can possibly reduce the ability of other shareholders to enjoy their property.  (I'm surprised it's not already part of the by-laws or article of incorporation, actually.)  You can probably require they pay for an engineer's approval if they want to do something beyond replace like for like. 



I'd also suggest requiring an inspection now, so you have an inventory of the current state.  When the current shareholders sell, require another inspection, and make them responsible for repairing or restoring things to the inspected state (or maybe the correct state, if what existed was wrong.)   The new shareholders would have the same responsibility. 



Talk to your lawyer, what you'll be able to do depends on a bunch of factors...

ChicagoCooperator

Thanks!

Thanks for the advice. We did a pretty good inventory of the system when we did a heating survey and then got an inventory from plumber who did the trap replacement (i.e. multiple traps in some places, multiple heat sources in others - one neighbor has the original convector and, yes, two additional radiators in the living room). At some point I need to put it all in a nice spread sheet.



The big problem for me (darn, I had this all nicely typed out and then the editor ate the comment) is the Heat-Timer controls. They need constant fiddling to maintain temperatures, one side of the building gets sun and the other gets wind and things get out of whack. We're getting a proposal for a system with in unit sensors, but I'm not yet convinced, although it seems sensible to control the system based on actual interior temperatures, not just outside temp and, I assume, return temp.



Just for fun, I've attached a couple pics of parts of the beast in the boiler room.

nicholas bonham-carter

Heat-timer problems

Do a search here for heat timer, and you will find that it is an average controller, which has often been used as a band-aid for an unbalanced system. I suspect your venting to be unable to allow the air to escape at low back-pressure. Even the Tekmar is unable to compensate for a poorly maintained system. Mr. Sreja is in Chicago, and has written here of his Tekmar installation, so search for his posts.

You should contact Boilerpro, AKA " steam whisperer", who is close to Chicago, and posts here.

You need to find a good steam pro, because your boiler is not getting younger!--NBC

Dave in QCA

Tekmar Fan Here

In the fall of 2008, I installed a Tekmar 279 Steam boiler control in our building. It has worked very well in providing even temperature control. Heat Timer has improved their product line and units now that take interior temperature into account. However, my impression is that they are quite pricey.



The Tekmar 279, like the Heat Time, works on the basis of a certain amount of heat on time each our based on the out door temperature. Of course, it is calm or windy, sunny or cloudy, and a host of other things can cause minor mismatch between the amount of heat needed and the amount of heat provided. So, Tekmar adds the option of interior sensors. I put one in a south unit and one in a north unit, and selected the option for the coldest sensor to provide feedback to the controller. They way it works is the sensor fine tunes the "on time" schedule, which is primarily a function of out door temperature. I find that the fluctuation over the course of the hour is less then 1 degree F. It really does a great job.



http://tekmarcontrols.com/products/hvac-systems/279.html

http://tekmarcontrols.com/images/_literature/279_d_06.pdf



Pexsupply.com is a good source for the product.

ChicagoCooperator

Re-reading old posts (on other threads)

I've been rereading old posts on other threads and realized that we've been forgetting something essential - resetting the Heat-timer to start the timing when steam reaches the farthest convector from the boiler. I'm thinking that might do some good as it's doubtful that that has ever been done.... (or at least recently)



I also suspect part of our trouble is that the heat timer is set for radiators rather than convectors and I don't think it can be reset for shorter cycles - in other words, it's the wrong model if I recall correctly.

Mike Kusiak_2

Heat timer controls

There are two versions of the EPU control. The standard model is equipped with a 60 minute cycle timer motor and is normally used with cast iron radiators. The model recommended for convectors has a 30 minute cycle.



I am not sure if the 30 minute timer motor is available separately as a replacement part to do the conversion, or you have to send the complete control back to heat timer for conversion. The last time I checked the 30 minute EPU control was still available new as a special order.



If you don't have the heat sensor installed at the furthest radiator or return to determine when steam has reached the last radiator, you will definitely have trouble maintaining uniform indoor temperatures. This might be the first thing to check.

ChicagoCooperator

Timer

I think we may just replace the whole timer/control unit - it's looking like there are other problems with it but we will definitely be resetting it.