Got an estimate

McSwiggin

Hi All,

I recently got an estimate from a contractor I found on here. However, I have a question for you. The estimate was for quite a bit of money, and from what I can tell by reading 1.5 of Dan's books ("We got Steam" and "Lost Art", so far), the near boiler plumbing is completely wrong. I got the estimate without the specialist even turning my system on.



So, my question is: should I be concerned that I got an estimate without the specialist even turning my system on? Or is it so obvious that he wouldn't even need to? The estimate was for under $10k, but still more than I was expecting (though I was just guessing, I have no experience with the cost of plumbing). Thank you in advance for your help.

JStar

Steam

We don't discuss pricing here.



What problems were you having? What did he propose to do?

Rod

Piping Problems

Hi- As JStar mentioned, one of this board's rules is we don't discuss pricing.

Post some pictures of your boiler so we can see what need to be done. Take the pictures from back aways so that they include the piping so we can see how the piping is configured.

- Rod

McSwiggin

Got an estimate

Sorry, I was more concerned with the fact that I got an estimate without starting up the system. But I will not mention pricing again.



My concern with the system is that it is expensive to run. I used 1150 ccf's from December to April of last year, while keeping the set point at 64 deg.



Just wondering if it is typical, or possible, for a reputable contractor to provide an estimate without actually starting up the system. I attached a picture of the system for your reference. Basically everything is wrong. There is no header between the mains, the hartford loop is too high, the A-dimension is only a few inches (all stuff I recently learned from Dan's books, thankfully). That's just the beginning. I have no doubt that the near boiler piping needs to be completely redone, however, I am skeptical that I would get an accurate estimate just by looking at a system.



The contractor seemed knowledgeable and friendly so I would like to use him, but I'm very new to this stuff so I just want to make sure I make the right decision before spending.



So, I guess another way to ask my question is: what else could go wrong if I have the piping replaced? Is there anything that may have been caught by starting the system up? Or is it possible that my piping is SO bad that it doesn't matter if there is anything else because the piping is killing this system. I would prefer to not have any surprise expenses. Thank you very much for your willingness to help!

nicholas bonham-carter

Estimate

What exactly is included in the estimate-replacement, or repiping? Is the boiler leaking?

A knowledgeable steam expert should know by looking at your system, what has been done wrong.

If a replacement, then make sure that you measure the EDR (do a search here), in order to properly size the boiler. If the boiler is not leaking, and is the right size, you could have the supplies repiped with a drop header, which will make the next boiler much easier to install.

We recommend following the boiler piping instructions at a minimum, and someone will have to skim the boiler which can be done by you, to save the installers's valuable time.

It looks like your return should be dropped lower as well.

You can remove the insulation, and then reuse it. Get a good low pressure gauge while you are at it, and plenty of good main vents.--NBC

McSwiggin

Got an estimate

Thanks NBC. Estimate includes all near boiler pipes. Adding a header, fixing the returns, moving the water supply, and fixing a crazy addition to the piping (which you can kind of see off of the partial header/equalizer).



The boiler is not leaking. I have been searching for an installation manual for the boiler, but have not had luck yet. I searched this site for my boiler type, but have not yet had a chance to go through the 100+ results. Thank you for the quick reply!



Like I said, the person doing the estimating seemed great. I just want to make sure that estimates without starting up the system is typical. Thank you!

nicholas bonham-carter

Drop header

Using a drop header with the 2risers will make this easier now, and easier later when the boiler actually fails and has to be replaced.--nbc

MDNLansing

Fair

As a homeowner myself I can certainly understand your concern. However, looking at this picture it sounds like you have a quote for what you need. If you're looking to upgrade to increase efficiency it doesn't really matter how your system runs right now. To save money on fuel costs you would need a new boiler. Based on you picture, no good installer is going to hook a new boiler up to those pipes. To maximize efficiency you need new near boiler piping. How your boiler runs now doesn't have anything to do with how a new boiler and new piping will work. In fact, I'd be leery of a contractor that said he would install a new boiler with that piping. Being honest about replacing the piping, at the risk of overpricing himself, is a good thing. Again, you're not replacing a leaking boiler, you're looking to lower your fuel consumption as much as you can. That would certainly require new near boiler piping.



The concern I think you should have is with sizing. You haven't mentioned if the contractor sized your system and generated a quote for a properly sized boiler, or not. You do not want a boiler that is the same size as your existing one if your existing boiler is too small or too big. You want a boiler that fits your system. This is measured with EDR. Make sure the calculations have been made to select the proper size of boiler. Don't just replace one for one until you verify your existing boiler was sized properly in the first place. If he did that, I think you're heading down the right path. Now, just figure out how much you will save on fuel and calculate your ROI. Sometimes it doesn't make financial sense to replace a perfectly working system. If it's going to take you 30 years to earn your money back, now might not be the time to replace. However, if a new system will give you an ROI of 5 -7 years, now might be the time. Overall though, it sounds like your contractor is up and up, based on the limited info you have provided.

Mike Kusiak_2

Efficiency

Your boiler piping is far from optimal, but don't expect miraculous fuel savings from just changing the piping. There is a lot more to reducing heating costs than just that.



How large is the house, how well is it insulated and how well has the boiler been maintained? These are probably more important factors to consider in determining if your heating costs are reasonable and how much they could be reduced.



How well does your system operate now? Is there water hammer etc? If your only problem is that you believe the costs are excessive, honestly I don't think that you will save anywhere near what you are proposing to spend on repiping.



If it was my system, I would wait until boiler replacement was necessary and then redo all the piping at the same time.

nicholas bonham-carter

Low hanging fruit

I see a horizontal return pipe leading to the Hartford loop, which is very close to the height of the waterline. If the pressure rose to high, the waterline in the reruns could rise to the point of trying to fill that line with water;thus starving the boiler of water.

Why not provide a complete description of the characteristic of the boiler based on your observation, including a radiator survey-EDR:

1. Does it heat the pipes quickly with steam?

2. Once steam is rising, does the boiler complete an uninterrupted cycle, until the radiators get hot, without short-cycling?

3. What sort of main venting is on the system, and condition?

Is the waterline constant or fluctuating?

Post the results here.

If it were mine, I would seriously consider repiping, but not during the winter if it could be avoided (no serious symptoms).--NBC

McSwiggin

Got A Quote

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my post!



I'll try to answer everyone's questions.



Firstly, my boiler is 29 years old. The contractor has not suggested that I replace the boiler, just the piping. Actually, he suggested that I have him inspect the boiler first (low inspection fee), then see what I want to do from there.



I'll have to research the difference between a header and drop header. I like the idea that if I have the piping fixed now, I won't have to pay to have it done again once the boiler goes (is that an accurate statement?).



The ROI is my hang up right now. If I assume a 25% fuel savings (wild guess) after the near boiler piping is replaced, then it will be a 16.5 year pay back!!! And I have an old boiler that I have no idea how long it will last.



The house is 2100 sq ft. I insulated the pipes, and just had the house air sealed and now have about 13" of insulation in the attic (compared to about 3" last year). Right now I don't have any idea how much energy that is saving me because I have not been in the house long enough to get two bills from the same time period. I'd still have to do the degree days calculation to accurately compare them though.



I have not done an EDR calculation, but I like the idea. I'll do it this week and compare it to the size of my boiler. I don't have all the charts, but a good starting point is probably the chart in "Lost Art".



Issues I am having:

1. Cost

2. Water hammer (though I still need to finish checking pitch of all radiators)

3. If my pressure gauge is correct, then the system is running at 7psi. Not sure if the gauge is correct though. Gotta get another one and check. I was thinking of checking off a radiator.

4. Some of my radiator vents sound like they are spitting and whistling.

4. Some hack put in the piping.



To answer NBC's questions:

1. I'm not sure what "quickly" would be, but it seems to me that steam reaches the closest radiator in a reasonable time period.

2. The boiler will run for long periods of time before shutting off. I'm not exactly sure what is shutting off the boiler. I assumed it was the thermostat, because when the boiler shuts off, I can still move the pressuretrol and hear the "click" of the switch. I need to play with this some more though.

3. There are 3 main vents. They look like they have been replaced within the past 10 years or so? They are not rusty, so that is all I have to go by. I haven't removed them to try to push air though. They don't spit or whistle though. They are, unfortunately, installed in a Tee right above the line that drops down.

4. Water line fluctuates during operation by about 1/2" - 3/4". I don't have to add water to the system. Although, there was a point where it seemed as if it were adding water by itself. But that hasn't happened since I dropped the water line to 1/2 up the glass.



Thanks again for all of your comments!



I think now, for me, the best option may be for the contractor to inspect my 29 year old boiler. If it looks okay AND the repiping can be reused when I eventually need a new boiler, then it seems like there has been nothing that he has done that is raising any red flags. Thanks so much everyone!

Mike Kusiak_2

Savings from repiping

Realistically, you will not see anything near a 25% savings in fuel costs just from boiler repiping alone. You just can't violate the laws of physics.



In order to save 25%, you would have to be losing 25% of the energy transferred to the steam. So where is this energy going and how could you reclaim it?



First, in a properly operating boiler, about 20% of the heat energy is lost up the chimney with the exhaust gasses from combustion. This is a given that you can't do anything about. You lose a few percent from heat loss through the jacket of the boiler which heats the basement. So realistically, you may transfer 75% of the heat energy of the fuel to the steam. This is a given and has nothing to do with the piping.



Now, you want to transmit this energy to the radiators. This is where the piping comes in. To minimize heat loss, you insulate the piping, which you have already done. Changing the configuration of the boiler piping will not change the heat loss, or the amount of heat delivered to the radiators.



If some of the radiators heat better than the others and the heat is uneven, then the efficiency may suffer because the system burns longer to satisfy the thermostat. This is more a function of the venting than the near boiler piping.



While repiping may solve some problems such as the water hammer, fuel savings is not going to be significant. You may save a few percent, but certainly not anywhere near what you seem to be expecting.

McSwiggin

Savings

Thanks for the reply Mike. I was under the assumption that my boiler is producing wet steam, and wet steam would cost significantly more than dry steam?. Is this not the case? I think I need to read up some more on wet steam to see if it is an efficiency problem, or a water hammer problem.

MDNLansing

Yikes

Replace that gauge and get the pressure right!



You should run that boiler at 1.5 psi or less. Running at 7 psi is costing you a FORTUNE. That should be number one priority, like do it this weekend priority. If you're really running at 7 psi you're destroying the boiler, not to mention the fuel cost with running that high. I'll also be willing to bet once you dial it down below 2 psi you'll see some problems go away. As stated before, your returns are real low. If that boiler hits 7 psi it is certainly flooding them.



BTW, wet steam and dry steam are relative terms. They refer to the quality of steam, which is a precise measurement, but most people in the steam industry just use dry and wet to describe the quality. There are ways to calculate the steam quality, but that's typically only done in the sterilization arena, like hospitals. But once again, at 7 psi with flooded returns, your steam will certainly be too "wet".

nicholas bonham-carter

timing of steam arrival

Someone here has recently timed his steam arrival here, and if it could be repeated here, then a benchmark could be made for mr. Estimate.

What about having an energy audit done, to find any air leaks, etc.

In the meantime, I would concentrate on getting your pressure down below 2 psi.--NBC

McSwiggin

I know what I'm doing this weekend

Looks like I should tackle that pressure problem this weekend then. Are the gauges specific to steam? I'm guessing not. I think I have some extra pressure gauges in my garage that I can connect to a radiator (that way it will only see air). Or, if needed I can go to a plumbing supply to pick up a 15psi gauge.



Does anyone think it would be worth it to have the contractor inspect the 29 year old boiler? He would remove the jacket and take a look. I was thinking that may be a good idea because it could possibly tell me if it still has some life left in it or not.



I had an energy audit done this year (2 actually, long story). That is how I got my house air sealed. I tore up my attic floor so they could get in there. Then I built up an additional floor using 2x8's on top so I could have a boat load of insulation blown in.

ALIGA

gauge

you would need a 3 or a 5 psi wika gauge, can be found on pexsupply.com

Paul48

ESP

The best inspection can't predict when the boiler will fail. At 30 years, I would consider that boiler done. Since the near-boiler piping is boiler specific, if it fails in 6 months, the piping would have to be re-configured to the new boiler.

  That's just a homeowner/ machinists perspective, and the pros may say I am "all wet".

Mike Kusiak_2

Wet vs.dry

Wet steam is less efficient in that it carries less energy per unit mass than dry saturated steam. Water at 212F contains 180 BTU of heat energy per pound , while dry steam at the same temperature contains an additional 970 BTU of latent heat of vaporization. So if you are buying steam by the pound, you want the least amount of water as excess baggage, which you pay for but only serves to dilute the energy content.



But when you generate the steam in a boiler yourself, you are only paying for the heat necessary to vaporize the water into steam. You add the 970 BTU per pound of dry steam created and the additional carried over water goes along for the ride. The net effect of the excess carried over water ( which makes the steam "wet" ) is to increase the amount of condensate returned to the boiler. Theoretically, if the excess water leaves the boiler at 212F and returns at the same temperature, there is no net energy loss due to the "wetness". In the real world, the return piping may not be well insulated and the increased volume of condensate plus carried over water may lose some additional heat.



I hope I haven't confused you more with this explanation, but the end result of the wet steam is that a small fraction of the energy content may be lost in the basement piping. Actually its not really lost, but serves to heat the basement which may not be a part of the living space.

mcsteamy

.

It would probably cost less and have a better ROI to burn dollar bills in the fireplace than pay someone an incredible sum of money to replace all of the near boiler piping.  All of it would need to be redone when the boiler is ultimately replaced.  Without getting into pricing specifics of a job, the factory-published MSRP on a new steam boiler is often only a few thousand dollars.  The cost of a boiler job is in the install.  Why pay someone to reinstall a 30 year old boiler?



And your piping, while not perfect, may not be producing that many problems.  It has been there and working for 30 years.  While there isn't a proper header, and the piping appears to be all wrong, there is at least a nice vertical rise from the boiler before branching out into the system, which will help make decent steam.  Bad piping doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work, or that it leads to high fuel bills. 



Mike is exactly right--unless your heat is going out the chimney, it is making it into the house somehow, wet steam or not.  I think the comments so far are dead-on.  Your savings will come from cleaning up the other details with the repiping--making sure the pressure is low, and making sure the venting is right.  Probably not the repiping itself.



To an extent, an inspection can give you some idea of boiler condition.  If there are pinholes forming at the waterline, or other obvious rust problems, replacement is imminent.  But if it looks good, clean it up, treat the water, and be nice to the boiler and you may well see another 25 years out of it.

ALIGA

stress

as it is winter, i wouldnt stress about redoing anything during this season.



throw on some extra clothes, buy a space heater to warm up areas of the house, until you can think of a game plan in warmer weather.

nicholas bonham-carter

Pipe work

Winter time is always a bad time to make any changes which are non-emergency.

A drop header, which is mounted reasonably high., and to the back of the boiler, makes a changeout much easier, as the new replacement only needs the two risers, and horizontals reconfigured when the old boiler meets it's maker. There should be a union in one of the verticals between boiler, and header to make that possible. The other great advantage of the drop header, is in its separation from the boiler, so keeping the oily water coming out of the boiler from all returning to the boiler itself. A tee with a valve in the equalizer, slightly below the waterline height, can drain off a couple of inches of junk floating in the equalizer. The oil from the riser, which drains into the boiler itself will eventually end up trapped in the surge column from the skimming port, which can also be drained periodically.

Murphy's law will make your new boiler fail prematurely (graphitic corrosion) if you do not make this accommodation, and conversely, the replacement will outlast the grandchildren of Methuselah if you do!!--NBC

McSwiggin

Thank you all!

Thank you everyone for your detailed replies. Seems to me that I should just run it as is after checking out the venting and pressure, then inspect the block in the spring. This will also give me time to really understand the information you have presented to me (drop header, where I should have valves for cleaning, etc, thank you NBC), as well as learn more about my boiler. Specifically how to clean and treat the water. Thank you again to everyone, I feel like you have saved me from potentially spending a lot of money that I would never see again. This site is great!



Ps. I thought the ROI on burning dollar bills was pretty funny. Strong work McSteamy.