New steam boiler

jjheat

We recently changed an oil fired steam boiler to a Burnham series 5 gas fired steam boiler. The old boiler was leaking for years and never came up to pressure. The new steam boiler with new main steam vents, does come up to pressure and when it does it is banging all over the place. I have 2 theories 1 being a much lower water line in the system or 2 that these problems were there before and never showed up because the system never reached pressure.



This is a pic of a different job but same boiler that WAS there.

The new boiler with header then new boiler complete.

I used 3 new Hoffman #75 main steam vents to replace the original steam vents.

1 pipe system with 3 main branches that each have a steam vent at end of steam main. Old style column radiators in the apartments.

Steamhead

How about

taking some pictures of the boiler, system, radiators, main vents etc so we can see what you have?

jjheat

Pics

I posted pics and info about system now. What do u think?

Boiler wrestler

banging

What pressure is it running at? Did the boiler get skimmed. Is the piping insulated? 24" from water line to bottom of header?

JohnNY

Neat job.

But wouldn't you rather have swing joins on that header?

jjheat

header

The header is 29" to normal water line. Pressure is set 4 psi turnoff. I didn't see a need for swing joints as we were getting a welder in to fab a header.

jjheat

skimming

Also the boiler was skimmed 3 times to stop surging and No the piping is not insulated yet. Waiting for insulator until this banging issue is solved.

JStar

Steam

Headers should never be welded unless you add a lot of threaded fittings to allow for expansion and twisting.



Turn that pressure down! Why 4?



That header is an "automatic boiler splitter".

jjheat

Header

The reason I chose to have header welded was the amount of tees and joints I would have needed. Would have needed 2 elbows + 4 tee fittings with nipples in between that could leak.

Stupid reason for 4 psi is that the pressuretrol that comes with boiler lowest setting is 2 psi with 2 psi differential. Should I invest in a vaporstat?

JStar

Fittings

How many threaded fittings are on the system now that aren't leaking? Why be afraid to add a handful more?

jjheat

vaporstat

Which vaporstat would u recommend to replace my pressuretrol?

jjheat

welded header

I have several dozen boilers out there with a similar welded header and never had an expansion or any other issue with them.

nicholas bonham-carter

Faulty pressuretrol

Definitely get a vaporstat to keep that pressure down to ounces, verified by a good low-pressure gauge.

That welded header looks interesting, and if the boiler risers were connected to its top with some horizontals to absorb the movement, it will not split the boiler.

Can you tell us what the difference was between the welded and the standard pipe with fittings, without mentioning actual dollar figures- such as the welded was x% of the threaded. I think they could save some money for the installation, but they do need to isolated from torquing the sections.--NBC

jjheat

weld header

welded header was about 40% less labor and material cost.

What model vaporstat do you use?

JohnNY

?

You could still have added swing joints and used your welded header.

Surely there was money in the job for two more elbows and shoulder nipples.



Also, you should consider buying an ad if you're going to advertise here. That's what Steamhead, JStar and I do and it works great to bring in customers.



Again, neat job. Good post.

Dave in QCA

Nothing Wrong with a Welded Head.... If done right.

Your idea of a welded header can work very well if it is done correctly. The advantages that you have pointed out are cost savings. Other advantages are the fact that it will drain 100% of the water in it. But, if you don't do it right, it's going to cause problems. And, that is why this installation is banging.



First, You gotta have swing arms like the install manual shows. The reason is to separate the expansion and movement of the building piping and the header from the boiler block. The way you have it does not do that. It might not crack the boiler, but it could. And, if it does, the warranty will be voided because you did not put those swing arms in.



Second, Imagine that there is both water and steam coming out of the boiler risers, because that is what the reality is. The header's purpose is to separate the water and return it to the boiler through the equalizer. So, you NEVER pipe the risers into the bottom of the header. Water from the first riser as it moves toward the equalizer passes right over the opening for the second riser, and it will want to fall down that second riser pipe. At a minimum, the risers must enter the header on the side. Even better, drop them in at the top and you have a drop header, which is the best.



Third, your far boiler riser turns and goes horizontal way below 24" and when you combine that with its connection into the bottom of the header, and the location of the second riser, you have built one helluva pipe banger.



If you correct those three things you will have a great install, and the welded header will add to the system, not detract. While you're at it, turn the pressure down. Skim, skim, skim.

mcsteamy

Information to help you out..

Good thing you found the Wall!  Not too much to add since Dave covered so much of it.  Moral of the story:  You're going to have to disassemble basically all of it and re-do it to get it right.  So much for those cost savings...



If you want another way out, even if you make it work "for now" with band-aids you have likely voided the warranty.  And if ANYTHING goes wrong, the homeowner (or building owner) if even remotely computer savvy will have your hide.  If the boiler is out of warranty and it fails, guess whose fault it is now?  Have you done your customers any sort of service when their boiler starts leaking in 20 years when it should have gone 40 or more?



In only a couple of minutes, I quickly turned up two posts that well-illustrate the problems you are going to face.  The first details fairly clearly what the cause will be of premature boiler failure.  The second clearly shows how this should have been done.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/101312/Steam-Header-Swing-Joints

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/147117/5-drop-header



One other thing no one has mentioned yet:  Are you sure that you cannot get the pressure below 4 pounds with the Pressuretrol?  Most any Pressuretrol can be made to cut out at 2 pounds or less.

Dave in QCA

Welded Header Installed Correctly

Here is a picture of a welded header that is installed correctly. Install was by Jamie Pompetti.



Hint you could take the header back to the shop and cut it in half, spin the supply end 90 degrees and weld it back together. The rest of the repiping won't be that hard. Can';t see the equalizer end very well, but remember, ideally the equalizer needs to be vertical until below the hardford loop connection, i.e., below the water line. If it is absolutly necessary, you can turn 45 degrees, but not horizontal above the water line.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/articles/1345/271.pdf

jjheat

Vaporstat

I switched out the pressuretrol for a vaporstat and system is running much better. Were do u guys get quality 3 lb. gauges? I consulted the boiler rep for my area about the header. He told me to add a swing joint on the far supply towards the front of the boiler and then back into the header and it would be fine for any warranty issues. He said he sees many welded headers now due to cost of cast fittings and hasn't seen any problems with them.

JohnNY

Welded

Do you buy that welded header off the shelf, or do you have it made up?

JohnNY

Welded

Because it's pretty cool.

jjheat

Welded Header

No I didnt buy it off the shelf. My brother is a welder/pipefitter who does custom headers for anyone.

Steamhead

Well, you can't beat a family connection

still, there is a right way to do welded headers. The one at the link Dave in QCA posted is the correct way.



Steel and cast-iron expand and contract at different rates. You need a bit of movement to allow for this, which threaded joints will provide. In the pic Dave linked to, you see the risers come up above the header, elbow over and then down to connect to the welded portion. This provides two "swing joints" on each riser that allow for movement.



I had consulted on the job in that pic, quite a few years ago. It is a VECO system. ISTR Jamie had someone make that header for him, as you did for yours. Along with a bunch of Gorton #2 and #1 main vents and a slight correction to the dry return piping to allow air to vent, it made a HUGE difference in how that system worked.

nicholas bonham-carter

Welded header thoughts

Used as a drop header, I see plenty of use for the welded header. With the risers and drops, and other threaded connections, there should be no problem with isolating the different expansion characteristics of the steel from the cast iron. I will try one on my chapel project, with 2 boilers; and you will all here be first to know of any problems,

In the spring.

Thanks for bringing this subject up!--NBC