monoflo

Paul S_3

so

So if I let the monoflo call on its own to turn boiler on....and I let Iseries operate on its reset curve...do I power the rf pump when the monoflo pump comes on? Thanks Paul s

Rich_49

Always

make an effort to design system so the system curve runs through center 1/3 of pump curve . Paul for the Bee that would be in a range 3 gpm @ 2.5' HD and 7 gpm @ 8 ' HD , that system curve takes you dead through the sweet spot in variable speed or constant T mode . Swei would be correct about operating at the bottom of the curve . Your wire to water efficiency would also suck .

Paul S_3

so

do i will be setting the bumble bee to the set point mode? thanks paul s

SWEI

Floor pump

should run continuously until WWSD kicks in.



iSeries-R will handle the floor automagically once it is set properly.



In the event there are overheating issues (typically from solar gain, or a huge soaker tub) you can add a stat, but set it around 4ºF higher than the desired space temp and leave it there.  If the occupants try to manage the space temp using the stat, there will be under- and overshoot issues.  We find an industrial temp controller and a remote thermistor provide less opportunity for disappointment.

Paul S_3

wwsd

I know iseeies has warm weather shut down....but how would you shut down pump during wwsd thanks for everything guys Paul s

Gordy

Maybe I'm missing SWEI

Something but if the RF loop is its own zone what are short cycling odds of the boiler for such a small loop?



I was thinking if the RF loop is slaved with the mono flow loop at least the boiler may not short cycle.

SWEI

Good point

I've grown used to properly sized mod/cons.  Not sure whether the bathroom even needs to call for heat -- that would depend on the other rooms' emitter sizing and more.

Gordy

Other rooms emitter sizing

Right if they are oversized bath would suffer. If under sized bath would overheat.



Thought I read it was a GE boiler probably oversized to begin with.

Paul S_3

so

So what would you guys do here?....should I slave it of monoflo...or I can probably run a thermostat in bathroom...will be using 2 way iseries with taco bumble bee...thanks Paul s

SWEI

Why a 2-way?

3-way would be my choice.



A 4-way *might* allow the zone to keep mixing down from residual heat even after the boiler stops firing, but that would depend on the system hydraulics.

Gordy

3 way

Two way does not allow you to mix down supply temps for radiant loop.

Weezbo

ecm motors ,,no dirt separator and monoflow systems....101

you and i and everyone else are in a part of the universe where we are under certain laws.

God does not temporarily suspend those laws .

If it is true for me then its true for you .

there is a lot i do not know ,as a matter of fact , i am surprised every day with something new i did not know . lol...

what is the size of a circulator that will heat a concrete block wall bedroom 10 X 9 with 6 feet of base board,200 F water heated water available, in 60 below zero ,with no insulation and massive infiltration around the warped door and iced up windows?

can i do this ? will it work?

It has a 2 meg boiler and the entire building is either monoflow or individual zones ...

with info like that it is not to easy to comprehend anything other than sawzall surgery on the entirety at least you still have a chance to install a heating system that will function properly , however , i am inclined to think that if you are going to change out the circ problem above for a larger circ you are going to be woefully disappointed .



.....................

you have choices and decisions to make , just not the ones you seem to be making .

what if the couplings in the slab have leaks , are you aware of Where they are? are they reducing 90's or straight couplings? for an example...



....................



Magnetism is something that has always interested me , i have studied it for years , decades , may go century one day ...

the magnetic Caleffi dirt separator is not just some spendy gadget that looky intriguing it actually preforms a very real function or more ...

a mouse on a string with line demarcating footage also has value the tool made from 1/8 " hydraulic hose can preform about the same function .

it aids you in determining what it is you are actually working with .

if the 80 feet turns out to be 80 cm you will fully comprehend you were given wrong information. I suggest that you have a need to know despite everything else you were told.

......

ecm motors in monoflow systems have some minor technicalities ...as you may have guessed it has to do with oxidation and iron. Iron is a magnetic substance.

......



Ah buh the Wilo Grunfoss and bumble bee are not like the typical wetrotor ...

here is where i'd like to call upon someone who sees this in a very real way the professionals who see wet rotor cirs installed below the boiler . any of them are more than welcome to help me clarify that , so do not dismiss anything of what they say.



......



Here is a thought for you ....where is or are the strainers in the system ? have you opened even one of them ?



,...



ok. did you manage to get anything out of anything i have said ?



if i give you all the answers it is nt much of a class . If you look for pictures there aint any . however , if you look into the back of the idronics recent trade magazine , hunt for a treasure posted by Hot Rod of a glass teaching aid ,or one from Mark Eathertons glass piping teaching aid or the little red school house aid here on the site you may get a bit of a sudden insight as to how some of these things work and what they do.



.....



i am going to say that there is plenty i do not know however you tell me the condition of that strainer and i will give everyone here some free scoop on these ecm motors circulators before they are replacing them and blaming the manufacturers .... these minor technicalities, even though out of sight, will make even the best and brightest go Hmmm... if not in mind ,

when doing their work properly.



..i hope you walk away with the thought that this is the best job you have ever had ,to date .

and i trust it will be.



banging an ECM on a boiler is not going to change physics . the laws are the same for everyone.

i am not making this stuff up : )))



Weezbo.

Paul S_3

weezbo

There are no strainers on this system....so you are suggestion to use the caleffi hydro seperator....without a ecm pump Paul s...and yes I will be using a 3 way iseries

Weezbo

Gordy

there is a way to use a two way as a "Bridge "

similar to an Injection bridge.

it may not be what P ,aul has in mind or what your minds eye sees ,

*~//: )

Weezbo

well ..

not exactly . because if we do something for the monoflow system and for your new "Cure" You want to make everything you touch say Hmmm... that is so simple and straight this cant be the guy who rolled in the boiler or the rest of this system .

we are looking for something that is like a Signature on your work .

if you have no dirt separator and not even one strainer neither circ or radiant panel selection will work as advertised some place in the future.

i will hang with you a while ...

Weezbo

the circ needs to be protected ,

so there are some tricks to that ,

olden golden day boiler makers used Fat pipe ahead of the return with a riser and a clean out sometimes ,

while not a True dirt separator it preforms reasonably well , does the system have something like that ?

it is not a magnetic dirt separator however iron has a chance to fall out of suspension into the fat pipe , much as colder waters are acting like a fluid and will roll down off a table , gold miners used this particular method to get gold out of suspension .

Paul S_3

weezbo

i was going to use a 2way iseries piped before a bypass with the bumble bee in front of bypass...paul s

Weezbo

more exactly , is

ecm motors in my opinion require magnetic particle removal.



i am all about you getting this done with as few "Surprises" as possible in the future.



because of that and your interest and enthusiasm to help and keep at it , let me say the impeller iron and magnetism of suspended particles do not mix well. a friend installed a very spendy circ on a monoflow and it ate its lunch .

Weezbo

Well

Yahmon

see , the flow rates in a monoflow determine the size of circ at the boiler for the entire system , that means When it is designed if it need 32 gmp thats what it needs and that s that.

now there are ways to deal with adding other things , however , thats where you have to think straight and base your thinking on known s rather than guesses .

H or what i call "i form" as in capital printed i ( I with a horizontal top and bottom) is "Basic H" , in hydronics and in Karate.



the H describes some communication from or to two pipes , stacK some (2) H's on a page and you now have two bridges a supply and a return between two pipes .



monoflow is all about that .



turn the two H's that you have stacked one above the other on its side and erase the first "Leg of the top H and the Last leg of the top H that is what monoflow pipe looks like ... draw in two more smaller top pieces of the last drawing ...that is what i call a Book....it allows the water or fluid to go thru the first take off if that take off is closed by a zone valve , it allows the criculation to continue thru the book and back into the monoflow main .



with very little disruption to flow or the circulator even seeing it and , it allows the temps to be more comfortable in the room.



and no real discernable temp changes in that room . control becomes a breeze as it were ,



how we doing so far?



see the Heat source is now right there at the venturi not 80 feet there and back to the monoflow loop . i distinguish a by pass from a book in these things as well....



what it allows also is control of temps of the loop itself , maybe you reduce the temps and save every penny that they spent having YOU do the work or , They see a return on their investment that Paid for you to do the work .... you have constant circulation through these books ,so that helps in stepping down temps to other emitters , that has Got to make you feel better about yourself . knowing you are doing something that helps them ...how could that not help you ?

Weezbo

i see the two emitters as take offs ,

they are not all one thing to me . both have certain requirements .

it is easy to envision both of these on the same "Loop" off separate books , one using a trv at the emitter the other using a bridge with a two way into a constant circ system for radiant floor ,

the emitter has a control nob or wall mounted cap tube to a thermostat and the floor side controlled by the i series , it is easy to see however maybe ...we need to speak to step down transformes for a moment.

there are buck and boost transformers from a given voltage one bucks it the other boosts it .

if i have some number say 120 v i can reduce it to 24 V or boost it , with adda ronk i could even do some fancy phase change leg ...

well , hydronics is like that too.



.... not only can we use the 120 for most appliances we can boost it or buck it down , we can make nearboiler piping take offs field side and communicate all this by water.



......

how are we doing so Far?

Rich_49

Good eye

Weez . ECMs really do have issues with nasties that can be attracted to them and foul them up in a hurry .

Paul S_3

good, good

So hydroseperator....with 2 way iseries and bumble bee....Paul s

Weezbo

That is the question ...

now where do we want to do this ...after the take off valves i mentioned in my first post ?



.............



You know back then when i was asking for some more information ?





or now when i know you distinctly said there was no y strainer?because honestly , there is a trick to using smaller strainers ...you have something of a minor technicality on your hands .

.............................

the trick is not obvious by any stretch because it involves cool waters turbulent flow and laminar flow and constant circulation .



............. Caleffi speaks to the laminar and the turbulent ...however going bak to the basic H again you can use the turbulent flow to help shake out the particals into laminar in what resembles an eddy current.

Paul S_3

correct if I'm wrong

I believe the smallest calleffi hydro seperator its one inch?There is no y strainer any where on this system...thanks Paul s

Paul S_3

why

Not straight from boiler its own independent zone like we spoke about before....and the boiler side pump how would you control that? Slave off monoflo? And keep bumble bee running continuously? And what control would shut bumble bee off during wwsd? Thanks Paul s

Gordy

Pics

Some pics man of the near boiler piping. Help us out dude. This is like trying to draw with out pencil, and paper.

Weezbo

one thing

hydraulic separation comes in numerous forms .



The discal likes to see coolest water descending with laminar flow ,



the circulation of water temps unless it hits a radiant cooling level does not immediately require humidity control. it is for that reason the actual loop length is of significance.



............

one of the things i have been using the vdt tacos (before the bumble bee) and concurrent with ...is for some btu exchange from high solar gain to cooler areas within the building.

.....................



you have to give me accurate information for to me aid you .



for all i know the stuff you were told is not true it might be ...in other words you are the guy doing the work , you are on site , you can determine if you have two 5 foot pieces of 3/4 " pex slammed into two reducing 90's,slammed into the floor and X amount of 1/2 " you have to be the eyes and ears on that , i am thousands of miles away...i a more inclined to go with your actual observations and your word on this if you have two 3/4" pex lines with 8 " of 1/2" and are going with 1/2' BEING 80 FEET there is something you ought to know , i cannot suspend the laws of physics .. i cant even do that with all my fancy tools ...



what if you found out that it was over 100 feet long ?

180? well, that would be really invaluable information for you and everyone else who are taking the time to make this your minor miracle.



controlling by temp is different than temp control.

just as zoning by circulators is different than zoning by valves .



i know you are keen on the bumble bee i get that , if you told me ok we have decided to use a 4 meg boiler in the house ummm what Can i say? oh yeah its a great idea?

that wont happen . especially if the heat loss at 1000btus a sq ft would be met in the first meg.

................

i know what i say is not always easy to decipher buh ,.. the stand alone zone for the floor warming control can have different controls as well. when you are using a circ that does not dead head. i have to deal with some minor technicalities very soon today .

....

your take offs from the main monoflow 3/4" are going to do a few thing s

1. make the emitter rad panel its own controllable, functioning, stand alone entity .

2.be come a bridge for the 2 way mixing valve

3. hydraulically separate the floor system from the monoflow ...

4 allow the monoflow to do its thing .

5 ...with the trv/ and floor to do the most that they can do .

getting rid of iron is a little bit like pumping away thats why i put a dead leg under the expansion tank on the cold water feed to the boiler.that way stuff falls out before it gets in at the coldest part it can fall out...



i am saying this correctly .

i want to say that the discal belongs at the return of the boiler ...however , right now i am thinking where it would do the most good for a new panel rad and the floor system .and when i think of that , i see it going from athe suppy side ball valve by long sweep 90 into a larger pipe tha then goes horizontal to a reducing T withe discal off the drop piped back into the t facing over the discal tied back into another T looking up to the rad and take off for the floor ....

that allows flow all the time even if no one bothers to open and clean it ....the particles either fall out into that and slower flow moves thru it and hotter faster flow moves across the top back to the T looking up,...

for all i know there is one made now for vertical piping arrangements .it might not doo as much as one would like for the boiler however it would definitely clean up the fluids to the rad and the floor.

i need to dash for a few ..

think about it you have time.

maybe Check the Solar section out and see if HR stops in .

he knows all about the newest parts in the Caleffi line.

he thinks things thru based on accurate information so you may want to find out what size pipe you have going into the return .

or better yet have a pic .. i used to make j pegs and put them on the desk top and shift them as a file onto the bass end of the reply.

wow i came home to find my last post never posted ...maybe it was destiny,...lol

i am home again ...

Weezbo

Thank you Gordy ,

did you have a chance to read idronics 13 ? on page82- 83 it shows the SEP4 . this has thhe magnetic cup outside of the lower discal portion of the hydraulic separator .

i would not mind buying the cup if it would fit my 3/4" discal .

for my purge pump.

it is not that i hhave seen one for the discal , i just had the thought that there is so much that is going on these days i probably missed the boat as they already exist for the LLH combo unit.

Weezbo.

i think the one picture of the risers helps a lot , the near boiler piping would be a definite plus .

and Paul ,

i think , i am so far aware of the two three quarter rise and return from the monoflow loop....my thought is that were they valved off that would be a good place to start . ....

whatever the flow rate is on the main circ was likely right if it has worked correctly all this time . the new parts and pieces selected they may of may not be the best pieces for your job..Thats where you seem to pick up on oh ok , a rad panel then just might be the ticket ..., lets just bang in a rad panel done deal then . oh waita min they are keen on some floor warming .. well we can lash up a mix set it at 100 run it off a relay with a thermostat bang done deal.

ok well , there is Bounce to consider boing its cold boing its hot . ok so a mixing valve with reset ,.. , thats the ticket ,... that will cushion the bounce , take off and landings will smooth out ...

every in put you have gotten had some rhyme or reason behind whats what with that ....

this ...

and the other ...

these are the minor technicalities , each one eliminates another set of surprises down the road ...

remember ,

" Them That works their Very Best,

Go down the road like all the rest."

well remember when doing this stuff was easy?

: ))

me neither.

icesailor

A- Freaking- Men

Again,

A-Freaking-Men.



Or as I once heard someone say:

"That might work for you. I've never seen it work for anyone else before but it might work for you."

Then, there's what an old retired Navy Fleet Admiral I had as a customer a few years back. He defined for me the complete "The Laws of Unintended Consequences".  That "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished".



OUCH.

Weezbo

i will see if i can get a picture ,

because ,

the monoflow has flow rates , so you want to make the take off from a book off the same monoflow takeoff as the new rad panel , i think i use a check sometimes also ,

and a book around the take off so you end up with a few ts , 90's valves checks , with what might look like a it of a ladder , i suggest a paco gauge or three as well , this helps visually when "Reading" the system .

i see the dirt separator , first off past the supply side with a t and bypass and fatter pipe decending and rising from the discal , and reconnecting to the crossover from the first T,

continuing to the rad ...on the way put in a Book it needs venturi inserts in 3/4T's , what that does is allow the water to roll when the rad is working or not , now it gets different the rad has a trv that lashes it up to the other open ends of the t's that are open , that right there is so that the system circ flows thru the main monoflow take off thru the ball valve crossing over the dirt separator on to the emitters ,

the next book is so that , beyond the rad you can put in the injection loop or what have you to the floor , the resistance is nominal as it were , the circ on the main monoflow will keep flow and heat there , it is like building rungs of a ladder ...it keeps moving the flow further along each rung of the ladder provides easy steps for the water to be when things open and close and also can allow a take off that is its own stand alone "System" depending upon temp , restrictions and flow lengths .

for an example you can step the new sysem , so that the return temp to the book is cold , in a case like that you can continue the monoflow loop past or extend it to a couple more take offs with a simple bypass and two more ball valves to aid in purging etc or adding maybe some more heat emitters ,toe kick or whatever that will help in mixing UP the return from a cold return ..

i know that sounds easy ... buh it is not in everyones "Play Book" .

try to think of monoflow as gears , that needs clutches to create or continue flow ...

one 3/4 loop can have many more "Loops" coming off of it , its about flow and temp and restrictions every restriction the loop sees the main sees therefore the pump sees , so you have to make it not labour by keeping what you do continuously geared and clutched so the heat makes it to where you are wanting to meet the heat loss or whatever you are about , the returns placement then is an issue insofar as what you want the return temp to be ,that the boiler sees ...so far , without getting too elaborate , once the water you are returning gets to the monoflow main it is already mixing back UP in a barrel in comparison from whence it came. the reason it is like that is the flow in the main has circulation of the supply water temp .basically .

you do not necessarily need to do modifications to the main loop. the heat and flow is at the take-offs for the emitter and always there when it is calling or not.

the inserts keep the "Magic" happening...

it is like a system bypass , or setpoint bypass in the field off two or three run outs .

check valves offer a bit more restriction and change the complexion of the face the main sees or the emitter .

i only wish we were having some real idea because maybe you could use the system pump and use a actuating monoflow valve and once again it depends on a number of minor technicalities ,one being how you pipe it .

does the boiler have a teckmar ,johnson ,honeywell , Taco , there too are a bunch of minor technicalities, pump exercising features ,for an example ,

it is about information to actualize in this , negative world, something positive.

i will see if i can get a pic of some sort ...

i have to run ...30 below and colder coming this evening ...