Cold room - anything I can do?

Dsisson

Hi guys.



My system seems to work great, except for 1 room. It's a bedroom with 2 exterior walls. Of course, it's my daughter's room, so my wife is worried about how cold it is. (Of course, I'm worried too, LOL) The radiator gets hot, has no issues, but does not seem to heat the room enough.



The radiator is an old style column type with 2 tubes, 4 square feet per section X 6 sections = 24 square feet of radiation. It has a ventrite #11 vent on it.



It is the last radiator on the main. The 2" main has a total of 116 square feet of radiation on it.



The offending radiator is served by a 1" runout which goes about 12 feet horizontally before turning up to the room. It is properly sloped. 1 pipe system.



I think this means that the maximum size radiator I could put on the pipe would be a 28 square foot radiator. That's not much larger than what I have now.



The only other thing I can think of is that the near boiler piping is not insulated. I'm wondering if insulating it would make a big difference in getting more steam to this radiator.



Again, this radiator does get hot, but does not seem to heat the room enough. Since it gets hot LAST of all the radiators, getting steam to it faster would seem to be a good idea (HOW???) or getting a larger radiator so it radiates longer would also seem to be a good idea.



Any suggestions? Venting? Insulating? Larger radiator?

Unknown

was the??

Was the pipe insulation in basement got removed?? If so, u may be running out of steam and only get the last of lanent steam..

MDNLansing

No problem

If you say the rad gets hot, it just doesn't heat the room, it's not a steam issue. Since you're limited in ability to up size the radiator, I'd get an supplemental electric heater for the room. Something like an Eden Pure. Insulation is probably the root of the problem but it doesn't sound like you have many options when it comes to using the steam.

ChrisJ

Too cold

Does this radiator heat fully top to bottom and all the way across?  Also how does it heat in relation to the other radiators in the house, faster or slower?



If slower you could try beefing up the venting.  A ventrite 11 is a slower vent and a Gorton #6 would be noticeably faster. 



How are the windows in the room?  How is the insulation in the walls and ceiling compared to the rest of the house?

Rod

Cold Room

Hi- It could be that the radiator is too small for the heat loss of the room and it could be that it’s just that the radiator doesn’t have a long enough time where steam is available to heat the radiator / room. ( sort of like turning on the shower in the bath room till the water gets really hot and then immediately turning it off.  The shower gets hot water  but isn’t on long enough to heeat the room)

 To test this out-  Try turning up the thermostat to a fairly high setting say 10 degrees above normal. (75 degrees max) This  will over heat the other rooms including the one which contains the controlling  thermometer. If the room then heats up this would indicate  that the present radiator can overcome the heat loss so the radiator’s size s okay and it just isn’t getting enough steam during the time period that the thermostat had the burner on.

Since this is the last radiator on the steam main it may be that your radiators are heating sequentially  meaning that the first radiator on the steam main receives steam before the second radiator and so on.  Ideally the steam main is completely filled with steam first before any steam enters any of the radiators. This is accomplished by having high venting capacity main vents. What is your main vent situation?

If the main venting is more than adequate then the larger radiators (which develop larger vacuum) may be “hogging” the steam. This can be checked shutting off the larger radiators nearer the boiler. If this gets steam to the bedroom radiator faster it means that as others have mentioned you need to  put slower vents ( small venting capacity) on the larger radiators as this will then  “free up” some more steam for the bedroom  radiator.



Have you checked the main vents for operation and what make and model are they? If you can’t determine this easily post a picture of them and  we can see if we can recognize them.



Things like insulation on the piping really helps get enough steam to where you want it as it minimizes the heat losses in transit.

- Rod

                                    

Dsisson

OK

I will track down what main vents I have & what are on the 2 radiators that are closest to the thermostat. You are right that the offending radiator gets the heat last and gets cold first, so the other radiators are getting the steam first.



Do the adjustable vents for the radiators make sense?



Where do I find out if a valve vents a lot or a little?



PS: yes the radiator does heat completely across from top to bottom.

ChrisJ

PDF

This link is a PDF written by Gerry Gill and Steve Pajek. It has all of the most comment vents and their speeds. I couldn't live without it these days.



http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Steam-Heating-Books/25/146/Balancing-Steam-Systems-Using-a-Vent-Capacity-Chart-by-Gerry-Gill-and-Steve-Pajek



I had used Hoffman 1As on all of my radiators but ended up switching to Gortons due to problems. The problem you may have is all adjustable vents pretty much max out at around the speed of a Gorton #6. This is faster than your current vent, but not a huge amount faster. Also the Hoffman 1As have a very sloppy and somewhat annoying adjusting method.



It all depends, if you get your mains vented good, a set of Hoffman 1As or Ventrite 1As could work beautifully. If you buy the venting PDF you'll see what I mean. A Gorton 5 is about the same as your current vent while a #6 is a lot faster. A #C is far faster, but may cause problems so use with caution.

BobC

ALL the vents

You need to look at all the vents on your radiators because the key might be in delaying the steam into the radiators closer to the boiler so steam favors the distant one, you want that radiator to heat for a longer period of time so it warms up the room. That might bring the system into balance but insulating the piping in the basement will help all of this as will making sure your main vents are large enough.



Bob

Rod

Cold Room

Hi- You really need to check out your main vents as this may be the key to fixing you problems. You might want to take a look at Gerry Gill's website. It has a lot of good info on steam systems, especially venting.   .http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/ 

Gerry Gill is an expert Cleveland steam pro. He co-wrote the venting PDF book that ChrisJ recommended to you.  Great book! I use it constantly.!

 I've also attached a pdf  on venting I wrote for someone last year which might be of help to you.

- Rod

Dsisson

Main vents

OK, the (2) 2" mains are vented with a #35 ventrite each.



The (2) radiators that are near the thermostat - one has a ventrite 11 and the other what looks like an older ventrite #1 (adjustable I think).



I think I'll experiment by swapping the #11 on the offending radiator and the #1 on the one by the thermostat and see if I can get the offending radiator to vent faster. If that helps, then getting a gorton #6 might make sense.



Other than the offending radiator, they all seem to heat in good order, approximately at the same time and I don't have any other issues (hot or cold rooms).



Should I think about swapping out the ventrite #35's on the mains? I read that getting something like (5) gorton #2's on each main would be a good idea (3/4" pipe for the vents). But that sounds like a lot of money - 10 vents at almost $70 each plus the piping. Any other options?

ChrisJ

Main vents

We will need to know how long the 2" mains are to be sure but if you install a single Gorton #2 on each main you will see a huge improvement over those Ventrite #35s.



A single Gorton #2 is 10 times faster than the Ventrite #35.

Dsisson

length of mains

one main is 13 feet long and the other is 14 feet long. 2" diameter mains, 1" diameter returns.

ChrisJ

Room?

If you have enough room one Gorton 2 on each is more than enough. Just remember they should be mounted on a nipple about 5" above the steam main to keep garbage out of them.



If you don't have room, you can do multiple Gorton 1s like I did on one of my mains but it will end up costing more. Just be cautious as #2s are physically HUGE. The second picture isn't mine and I don't recall who it came from but it will give you an idea on the size difference between #1 and #2 vents.



I really need to take a new picture because I just insulated that main finally.

Dsisson

holy....

Holy ****. those are big. The ventrite #35's are on a 5"ish nipple, but I don't know if I could get one of those monsters on or not. Might be able to angle over and stick one up in the joists. Wow.



Can I assume that using big main vents = using less fuel?

ChrisJ

To an extent

Yes. The faster you get the air out of the mains, the faster you get heat.



The idea is for the steam to hit the ends of the mains before it starts heading up to the radiators. This way, all of the radiators get steam at the same time. Or, at least very close to the same time.



The length of the piping to each radiator also effects it which you will have to determine that when venting each radiator.



Being the #2s may not fit how about starting with two #1s on each main and see how it performs? I think you will be impressed with the results.

Rod

Cold Room

Hi-

    Ventrites are very good vents. However, the Ventrite #35 is way too small to use as a main vent on today’s boilers. It’s a left over from the coal heating days. With coal heating, a fire was started under the boiler and maintained after that for perhaps even the whole winter. It took a fairly long period of time until the boiler was producing steam so there was plenty of time for the air to escape the steam  mains using a main vent such as a Ventrite #35.  Today’s boiler burners work on the “Flame Thrower” principle in cycles of “Full Heat On”, “Full Heat Off” so the main venting has to be much faster to be able to quickly get the air out of the steam mains so that the steam can get to the radiators as fast as possible while the burner is “Ful Heat On”



As others have suggested, go with a single Gorton #2 on each steam main, or if clearance room is a problem, multiple Gorton #1(s) as per what Chris has in the photo will work fine.  Gorton #2 (s) have a connection of ½ inch MPT (Male Pipe Thread), The Gorton #1 (s) can use either 3/4 inch MPT or  ½ inch  FPT. (Their attachment fitting is 3/4 inch on the outside and ½ inch on the inside)



I think you’ll see a big difference in the performance of your system due to the increase in main venting. At this point I would leave the radiator venting as it is other than perhaps using a Gorton #6  of the cold room’s radiator.  Be cautious with changing the vents on the radiators. Using too big a vent on the radiators can really screw things up balance wise.  The large radiators usually do better with a slower vent such as  the ventrites you have on them now. A Ventrite #1 is adjustable and the #11 is about the same venting as a #1 at the highest setting.



I’ve found that when one makes changes to their steam system, do the changes one at a time and observe the results before changing something else. That way if a change produces negative results you immediately know which change produced the problem.



If necessary, radiator vents can be cleaned by soaking them in CLR or boiling them in white vinegar.

Using 10 Gorton # 2 s on each of your mains would be a rather large “overkill”. That many ganged vents are only used in large systems. Some old houses that have mains circling the basement can easily have over 100 feet of steam mains. The whole idea of maximum venting is to get air out of all the steam mains in close to 3 minutes.

- Rod

Dsisson

Got it.

OK, I swapped the ventrite #1 and #11 today. I don't think I'll see much of a difference, but if it seems to help I'll get a gorton #6 for the offending radiator.



I do have enough space to put in Gorton #2's on the mains. One will take it directly and the other I'll have to go horizontally with a 45 and then I can get between a couple of joists.



Ordering pipe insulation too for the near boiler piping. One question: should I insulate the mains AND the returns?

ChrisJ

Yep

Mains are most important to insulate but I am going to be insulating my returns next.