How would you talk to this contractor?

ctjomac

Story Background: I'm a homeowner who has learned a lot about steam because of this forum. My neighbor has no interest and he converted from oil to gas this summer. He has to meet with the contractor but doesn't know (neither do I0 how to talk to him.

There are a few issues with the install and we don't know how to approach the contractor in the "problems".

The house has 420 sq. ft. edr. The contractor installed a WM atmospheric gas EG55 which is something like 521 edr (1 or 2 sizes too big).

The main vents didn't get replaced.

The drip leg didn't get flushed and the boiler is muddy

The boiler if flooding into the lines and the system is banging like hell

The low water cutoff won't let the boiler run unless the site glass is almost full and the install sheet says it should be 23-24" which is 1/2 the site glass

The skim plug is there but no valve for skimming, just a drain valve at he bottom of the return

The auto fill doesn't have a water shut-off valve

The condensate return is supposed to be 2" below the 24" waterline, but it's 4" below and it was reduced from 1 1/4" to 1"

The contractor is coming back Saturday to look at a gas fireplace log installation, but we need to resolve the above and they are worried about how to approach him as he has already been out twice to adjust the autofill and teach them how to get the water out of the boiler.....but it's not working. He isn't spending the right time on the job 

MDNLansing

I'm a homeowner

and I've dealt with many contractors on houses I own. I would start with simply writing the problems down on paper, and addressing them straight forward with him. Have a copy of the contract with you, but don't reference it by saying "you promised to do this and this and this". Make it visible to him, but just simply state "the system isn't performing as expected and here are the issues".



Let the situation develop from there. Once you lay it out to him you will know if the conversation needs to continue aggressively with you demanding the work be done per the contract and legal obligation, or if it should continue lightly and giving him a chance to make it right.



I had a very similar situation with an electrician one time. I was sure he was going to get mad and refuse to make it right because he spent as little time at the house as possible. But once I laid it all out, he said to me "thanks for pointing out these issues. The only way I'm going to improve my work is if people point out the things that aren't right to them".



You might be surprised at his response, you never know. But for sure, start out calm and informative just listing the problems. Tell him the problem, show it to him, let him respond, then move on the the next item. One by one, not blasting off the entire list at once. Take it slow and gentle to start.



This is his profession. All these mistakes could be considered insults to him. You don't want them to sound like insults. You want this to start off easy and casual. Then progress to getting nasty if ti has too.



Lets us know what he says and does.

nicholas bonham-carter

Excellent advice!!!

Well spoken advice on conflict resolution--NBC

Unknown

got any pictures

Got any pictures so we can help you with the questions... 1st question will be why is the boiler oversized for the system...

conversiontime

paid in full?

If not you have the best leverage. Based on the description is sounds like the install was done totally wrong (overfill, banging, etc). Pics are the best for others to tell you what is obviously wrong.



Always best to approach conflict initially with a calm, rational plan but in this case I am almost tempted to tell you to find somebody else as it sounds like this contractor does not know steam. I would definitely not pay him for any additional work.

ctjomac

Thanks for the great advise......

the owner has asked me if I would meet with him and the contractor on Saturday. He is looking to put gas logs in his fireplace now that he has gas service in the house. I'd rather not meet with him because the whole thing just upsets me and the contract they signed is worthless. ( install and connect new wm eg55 boiler and remove old one). Not much to go on

The 420 sq. ft. edr was determined by me from counting and measuring each radiator. He did not and probably based it on the old oil dinosaur that was there.

It is code here to have a backflow preventer on the fill line here in ct. (and he left no way to bypass it)

It IS overfilling well beyond the 23-24" (1/2) of the site glass. Would mud (there is a lot of it in the new boiler cause the low water cut-off to false read the water? 

The job was done in late July and PAID in FULL

I went over this week and drain about 15+ gallons of water out of it got it to 1/2 site glass (2" or so above the low water cut-off) and boiler wouldn't run until we fill it to 1/2" from the top of site glass) As far as skim valve it doesn't look to me to be "required" by the installer, just tells you to skim it and then pipe and cap it when done. He obviously didn't do either.

HOW important is the condensate return being 2" below the water line? Does 4" below work?

I learned a lot here, but now I'm pissed, just because these neighbors are really good people who have worked hard all there married lives to raise kids off to college, and now try to enjoy being retired and so on.......

Sorry....no pics tonight, but I can try

BobC

Get some pictures

A boiler installed in July and now that heating season has arrived the homeowners are finding it does not work. Boiler installations usually have a one year guarantee from the installer and  5, 10 or longer on the boiler itself by the manufacturer.



I would tell the installer that the boiler installation is not working - start off gently and adjust as you hear his response. It has to be piped per the manual at a minimum and although he did not install the return piping it's obvious he did not check to see if was in working condition. just because the boiler turns on when you hit the switch does not mean it's "working" and they can walk out the door with the check in hand and not look back.



If you didn't tell them a skim port was required he can charge you for that (he shouldn't) but if there are issues with the placement of the LWCO and the plumbing of the returns those are installation issues and they have to be addressed in order to consider the install finished. If he refuses ask to talk to the companies owner and hint that a judge would not look kindly on this kind of performance by a contractor.



Take some pictures so the pro's on this board can tell you what else is wrong with that install. Make sure you have some good shots of anything that you think is wrong. See if the company is willing to make this right but if push came to shove I would ask the manufacturer to have the installation inspected.



Bob

ctjomac

Meeting w/Contractor today is this...

too big:

He installed a WM gas atmospheric EG55 which produces 521 sq. ft. of steam

Old boiler was oil 488 sq. ft. of steam

House has 425 sq. ft. of steam

WM has a EG45 @392 sq. ft. and EG50 @ 454 sq. ft.

one pipe steam grossly oversized? and what potential problems does this bring?

kcopp

the EG50...

would have been a better choice. It will short cycle a bit. I have seen worse.

ChrisJ

Just a homeowner

But I had some concerns that my EG-45 may have been too big when I was installing it so I did some research.  What I found was the only differences between an EG-40 and an EG-45 were the burner assembly and the draft hood.  Every other part was identical.



I believe the same is true across this entire series of boilers.  This means your boiler could be converted to an EG-50 simply by installing the burner assembly and draft hood from an EG-50.  This is incredibly easy to do but obviously should not be done at your expensive.



The contractor may offer to simply remove a burner tube but keep in mind this would not be the same as installing the proper burner assembly as the spacing is completely different.  He may also offer to reduce the gas pressure.  I'm not sure how well either of these solutions work but my guess is not very well.  If they did, WM would simply do this instead of manufacturing different burners for the two models.

You may want to offer this suggestion to the contractor as it is far easier and cheaper than hauling the entire boiler out and replacing it with another. 

BobC

Too big is not good

but it will work and it should not cause the system to act as it seems to be acting. It will short cycle and it will burn more fuel but should heat the house quietly without any water hammer. Having the hartford loop two inches low will not cause the problems you are having. I assume the old boiler did not have any water hammer.



My old boiler was rated at 596 sq ft of steam and I have 196 sq ft attached to it - it was 3X to big and yet it heated evenly with no noise or fountains on the end of my radiators. It ran that way because I kept the maximum pressure low (12 oz) the pipe pitches were all good, and the boiler water was clean so it had a very stable water line.



Your neighbors installer sounds like he just dropped a boiler in, hooked up the pipes and ran out the door with check in hand. He is responsible for getting that boiler working, it might cost a bit extra to add a skim port and to replace or flush the return but he has to get that boiler working correctly - a good contractor would have done both as a normal part of the job. The boiler also has to be flushed and skimmed to remove the rust and to remove the oils in the water; flush first and then a nice slow (2 hrs per 5 gal bucket) skim - it may take several skimmings to get all the water out..



PLEASE post pictures, it is very hard for us to help you unless we can see how that boiler is piped.



Bob