Newbie to vents and mains insulation

verbal329

We moved in to an 1897 house with steam heat just in time to start using it with the onset of Fall. On the first few nights there was a lot of clanging going on as the system came on; being new to steam heat, I looked around online, shimmed on end of all the radiators using nickels, quarters, wooden plugs, whatever I could find, and felt like a genius when on the next few nights the clanging subsided to little or none.



I then noticed that the risers and header coming out of the boiler were entirely un-insulated, and only about half of the mains were in the basement. While the previous owner used the basement area as a workshop and half-living space, and likely wanted to keep it warm-ish, I'd rather have an efficient system. So I bought some 1" fiberglass lengths, plus joint and fitting insulation, and began putting it on the header and mains - I figured I would start with the NPS 2 sections first, and then move on to the NPS 1.5 and 1.25 runs later on - I've since figured out that these are the returns.



I've added about half of the insulation I bought so far, mostly on the (easiest) mains, and the clanging is back, about as bad as before, plus many of the radiators are now whistling, 1-2 sound like they're gurgling around the vent, etc.



I checked out Dan's Greening Steam book, went through it, and feel like I have a reasonable qualitative understanding of what to look for (clean vents on mains and radiators, make sure they're sized right, etc.). I'm curious, though, what the 'obvious' connection is between my having partially insulated the basement piping and the onset of an increased level of clanging and especially the vent whistling and other sounds. (Before insulating, I could hear the vents, but it was mild enough to ignore.) Is this type of 'system response' to added insulation in the mains and headers common?



Also, is 1" fiberglass worth adding to the condensate returns?

Dave in QCA

correlation or coincidence?

I'm not sure if adding the insulation has anything to do with the water hammer coming back. However, I suppose that having the mains insulated might leave more steam for the radiators and that could contribute to the problem. Not the cause of the problem though.



Let's talk about your venting. What kind of main vents are on your system and are they working? What kind of vents are on the radiators? I am assuming that you have a one-pipe system because you were talking about shimming the radiators.



Take some pictures of a few of your radiators and also of you boiler and the near boiler piping. That will help us to see what might be going on.

verbal329

vents and mains

It's indeed a one-pipe system. If memory serves, I have two mains with

Vent-Rite 35's on each. At least two each of our radiators have USAV

880B's and Vent-Rite #1's on them, but I'll do a more complete catalog

of them tonight, and will upload pictures as soon as I can....having

multiple eyes on this in addition to mine would be terrific.



John

Dave in QCA

ventrite #35

The ventrite 35 is a very slow and poor main vent. Venting the mains fast is one of the critical parts of achieving even steam distribution. As a comparison, the Ventrite 35 will pass 0.110 cfm at 1 oz of pressure while the Hoffman 75 will pass 0.500 cfm and the Gorton #2 will pass 1.100, or an amount of air equal to 10 of your Ventrites.

verbal329

vents and mains

Thanks. I've seen plenty of discussion on sizing main vents and replacing older, too-small main vents with larger vents, but one thing that isn't clear to me is if there is such a thing as a main vent that is 'too big'. For example, I can measure the mains as far as I can see them in the basement, but once they disappear in to the upper floors of the house, I'd be guessing on how much capacity I need. Is it then recommended that I "just get a Gorton#2 and forget about it", or do I need to be particularly precise about not oversizing a main vent?

Dave in QCA

No such thing

There is no such thing as having too much venting on your mains. However, there is a point where additional venting will not have any impact on the performance.



If you are going to use Gorton vents, you want to make sure that your mains will be cooling down to the 130-135F range. That is the temperature when the Gortons begin to close. So, while they work very well in most applications, if you cycle once an hour and your mains are still in the 160F temperature range, they're not going to work very well. You can do some checking on the temperature, perhaps.

verbal329

Details on radiators and vents

So I got sidetracked on the mains....but I've cataloged all the radiators and their vents.



Foyer #1: waist high, 10 columns, Vent-Rite #1

Foyer #2: waist high, 10 columns, USAV 880B



Living Room #1: waist high, 11 columns, Columbia Metal Box Co enclosure, Dole "Syphon" vent (looks old)

Living Room #2: knee high, double wide, 15 columns, Columbia Metal Box Co enclosure, Dole unmarked (no visible model number) with flat-head screwdriver turned control dial...looks old



Dining Room: knee high, double wide, 13 columns, Columbia Metal Box Co enclosure, Dole #1933



Kitchen: knee high, slim, modern, 22 columns, Vent-Rite #1 w/ dial



Bedroom: waist high, 8 columns, USAV 880B



Bedroom: waist high, 8 columns, Vent-Rite #1 w/ dial



Bathroom: waist high, 5 columns, USAV 880B



Master bedroom: waist high, 9 columns, USAV 880B



Office: waist high, 6 columns, USAV 884



The pictures that should appear below are hopefully uploaded in the same order as I've detailed them above.

verbal329

Things seems to be getting worse, rather than better

So I added two simple elbows of insulation on the header - I'm doing it very piecemeal - and whether coincidence or not, I seem to now have leaks in two upstairs radiators entry valves, I assume means they need to be repacked. More troubling, though, is that every step I seem to take in the basement insulating the boiler header or the mains that I can see seems to make the radiators themselves louder, mostly now in their whistling.....I'd say most of the vents are now under strain when they come on, particularly in one of the rooms where the valve leak has occurred - now that whistle has become a loooooong wet moan.



My intent is to replace many of the radiator vents with higher quality vents, but firsti need to tackle the main vents (I would think). What is the best way to estimate the air volume in and size the vents for the radiators I have? I'm looking at Greening Steam right now, but am unsure whether these are 'cast iron column' (.025) or a different type.

nicholas bonham-carter

New noises

Have you checked your pressure? The standard 0-30 psi gauge is useless for diagnostics, but required by code. Go to gaugestore.com, and get a 0-3 psi gauge which will enable you to keep your pressure lower than 1.5 psi. Your system will heat at a few ounces, and gradually you can work towards the goal of lowest pressure. Your main vents must be generous, and the gauge will tell you when you have added enough main venting, when the back pressure of venting is 2ounces.

I have only used the Hoffman 40, and Gorton vents on my radiators, but in general, use a slow Hoffman to start with, and add venting to those rads on long risers if they are slow to heat.--NBC

verbal329

Pressure

Hmm....the pressuretrol (Honeywell) looks to be set for close to 2 psi, which is the minimum reading, with a 2ish differential, but there is another gauge nearby (below the pressuretrol) reading about 6 psi, which confuses me. I'll submit a picture in a moment.

verbal329

gauges, boiler, header, mains

Pictures of the boiler, header, mains and vents, etc. The gauge that is reading 6 PSI is the white-faced unit just to the right of the low water cutoff glass. If the pressuretrol is already set for 2 PSI, how am I supposed to turn it down?

verbal329

Measured mains

So I have two mains.



Main #1: 15ft of NPS 2, with about 11ft of NPS 1of condensate return. Coming off of this main main is a roughly 9 foot spur that feeds a radiator, but this spur is not in the 'main loop' of the main/return loop....it terminates at the radiator.



Main #2: 25 ft of NPS 2, with about 20 ft of NPS 1 1/4 return.



Using the cubic feet of air per linear foot of pipe conversion, I get roughly .42 ft3 for Main 1, and .775 for Main 2 (Main 1 is a guess, as I'm not sure what the ID for NPS 1 is.)



On each of these main/return loops, I have a Ventrite 35. Since one of these loops is substantially larger than the other it seems like there's an imbalance....and that these vents should probably be larger. Gorton #2 has been suggested, but is it overkill for mains this small?



Also, does the 'spur' main impact the sizing of the radiator vents?

ChrisJ

Turn her down.

You can go lower.

Have a look at my pressuretrol and you'll notice I'm way below where you are.  I used my king valves, return valve and the 3 PSI gauge to get it to kick off at 1.5PSI and back on at 0.5 PSI.  The numbers on the pressuretrol are pretty much useless.  However the good news is your style pressuretrol is one of the best and works very well at lower pressures.  Just don't bottom the dial out, keep it a turn or two above the absolute bottom as I don't know how reliable it is down there.



I normally hate radiator covers but I have to admit, those look beautiful!  What model is your boiler?  If that is an IN7 or larger I believe it calls for two risers out of the boiler.





I'm a homeowner, nor a pro.

verbal329

How do it turn it down?

So here's my idiot question: how do it turn it down, other than through the pressuretrol? I turned that lower, from just above 2psi to just below 2psi, but that doesn't seem to impact the 'other' pressure gauge, which resembles yours in almost every way....except it still reads 6psi. So if the pressuretrol is set for 2 psi, with a 2 psi differential, how did it get to 6?

ChrisJ

Gauge

Does the gauge always read 6?



If it does, even when the boiler is off than the gauge is likely clogged with rust / mud.

verbal329

Yes....I think

It has been sitting at 6 psi ever since I took notice of it earlier today. The system has been off for several hours, as I just flushed the boiler for the first time (since moving in about a month ago).



Since the system is off now, I'll see if the gauge comes off easily and if it shows any sign of clogging.



Other than it being a burnham independence, I don't see another model indicator anywhere. It does look like there is a space for another outlet that is capped and not being used.

verbal329

Stuck fast

I torqued on the metal shank directly behind the plastic gauge housing as hard as I dared, with another wrench anchoring the hex nut behind it....with no movement. So that gauge is there to stay without serious intervention. (I did put some wd40 on it, just for grins).

verbal329

Switched thread names

Thanks Chris, Dave, and Nicholas....I'm still working on this, but I made the forum rookie mistake of starting a new thread with a related but slightly different question. In the other thread I posted pictures of the new mains vents I added, and am now trying to ascertain whether the setback I have been using (8 degrees, 65/58) overnight is a big driver in the issues I'm having.

Hap_Hazzard

Yeah, get rid of the setback.

Steam systems make more noise coming back from a setback than at any other time. Either reduce it to a couple of degrees or get rid of your alarm clock and set the thermostat to call for heat about 10 minutes before you need to get up and wake to the Anvil Chorus every morning.



You're probably going to be preoccupied until you get the noise issues resolved, but above you asked about insulating the returns. As far as heat loss, it's not such a big deal, but here's something to consider. Most guys will recommend leaving the water in the system over the summer, which is fine--the water becomes so saturated with iron and so devoid of oxygen that it can't attack the boiler and pipes like fresh water can--but this overlooks what happens to the outside of the pipes. Every time the temperature in your basement rises, the humidity shoots up, and the water in the returns is colder than the air, so fresh, oxygenated water will be condensing all over the outside of the pipe and eating into it like acid. As scale forms, it expands and forms loose leafy flakes that trap and hold moisture like a sponge. In about ten years those pipes will have much more severe damage on the outside than the inside. Insulating the pipes can prevent this by keeping that damp, basement air from coming in contact with your cold pipes.

verbal329

thanks

You're right about the pre-occupation, but thanks for the input. Sounds like it's worth doing, and the cost of the 3 ft sections isn't so bad....even more so if I opted for 1/2" insulation.

Hap_Hazzard

Wait for summer.

You can get the gauge off, but you'll need to take most of the trim off first. Otherwise you'll end up breaking something. It takes a little bit more than enough torque to rock the boiler, but, amazingly, the bronze casting won't break. Well, probably not. That's another reason to wait for summer. You don't want to be drilling out a broken off gauge stem with the prospect of freezing to death on your mind.



You'll probably find the actual blockage inside the tapping the gauge came out of. You can just poke it in with your finger then put the gauge back in with some PTFE tape on it. (No, it's not Teflon! DuPont told me so.) Originally they used pipe joint compound, which is why they're such a pain to get out. It's also why your WD-40 absolutely, positively will not get anywhere near those threads. (I bet they use the same kind of compound on the pipelines in the plants where they make WD-40.)

Hap_Hazzard

Columns, Tubes and Sections

Just wanted to clear up a little terminology for you.



The number of columns (or tubes, in a tube radiator, like the one in your kitchen) is the number of units from the wall out. Most of your column-type radiators look like they're three-column radiators. The tube radiator in the kitchen could be either three or four-tube. It's hard to tell from that angle.



The number of sections is the number of units from end to end. Your kitchen radiator has 22 sections. They're called sections because these are the units that are actually cast separately and then assembled. Your kitchen radiator was built from 22 separate castings, identical except for the two ends sections, which are usually identical to each other but different from the other sections in that they have legs and an extra boss or two to receive the vent tappings, all joined together by tapered push-nipples at the top and bottom and held together by two or four threaded draw rods. The construction of the column-type radiators is similar, but they usually have threaded nipples, lack draw rods, and in the case of those intended strictly for steam systems, they are only connected at the bottom.



Your column radiators look very familiar. I'll try to find the time to look them up if somebody doesn't beat me to it. These pros can usually ID them on sight--and tell you where they were made, when the company went out of business, what else they made and so on. If I'm lucky I can recognize them when I find them in Dan's EDR book (Every Damn Radiator).

stevep

Radiators

Beautiful radiators in that house!

rmoore007ri

adding the 0-3 gauge

Here is a pic of my Burnham Independence with a 0-3 psi gauge added. (And a different 0-30 than what it shipped with.) There is a 1/2 tapping with a 1/2 to 1/4 NPT adapter (hex head) ibto the boiler. It sounds like the 0-30 gauge needs to be replace so it doesn't matter if it is wasted. And the hex on the adapter means this is coming out with a socket set.



Adding the 0-3 psi gauge has made all the suggestions I've got on this site possible. Don't omit the pigtail(s) . . .

rmoore007ri

removing the 0-30 psi gauge

You write "I torqued on the metal shank directly behind the plastic gauge housing as hard as I dared, with another wrench anchoring the hex nut behind it....with no movement. So that gauge is there to stay without serious intervention. (I did put some wd40 on it, just for grins)."



I do not understand what nut you are trying to anchor . . . The gauge has a brass block on its back which unscrews in a CCW direction (viewed from the front) from the 1/2 to 1/4 NPT adapter threaded into the boiler. Use a 9/16 open end wrench on that brass block.

Hap_Hazzard

Could be 1/4, could be 3/8

Chances are he'd have better luck getting the bushing out without breaking, but he should wait until spring so he can strip off all the breakable stuff before he goes to town on it.

rmoore007ri

Burnham model #

It looks like a Burnham Independence Boiler and reasonably new. They come in models IN3 thru IN12. If you tell us the width of the cabinet (based on the side with the slide up and remove panel) we can tell you the model. They all have two riser tappings. The use of both is optional on the IN3 to IN6 and mandatory on the rest. (Mine is an IN5 and I used both).



Although others counsel caution, you might want to try loosening the gauge as I described. There should be no locknut and it is very straightforward. If it is the original gauge it will say "internal syphon" on the dial face. That means that in principal it does not need the pigtail to protect it from steam. Hah !!



The reason I would like you to try it again is that will be the easiest way to add the 0-3 psi gauge we all want you to add. If you try to use the pigtail the Pressuretrol is mounted on you will be into the wiring.

Steve_175

Header

I am no expert but the near boiler piping looks all wrong.

And the main vent should be replaced with something bigger and have some elbows installed in between to bring it away from the vertical pipe.