Extra Tank on a Weil-McLain?

saikosis

I had contractor number three out today. Like one of the previous contractors, he told me the same story about not being able to do tankless on a gas-fired steam boiler. He didn't say the capacity might be too low; he said it wasn't an option, I told him Weil-McLain, Slant/Fin, and New Yorker all have it and maybe others. He was a Peerless fan, just like the other guy. What's with these guys who prefer Peerless not knowing what the other manufacturers offer? I get that you can prefer a brand for price, performance, etc., but give me the courtesy of knowing the other stuff, give me options, and give me your honest opinion about what'll be best for me. Right?



Anyway, he also said something strange about the Weil-McLain. He said their boilers can't hold enough water to meet their rated steam output. He says they short cycle because they're always waiting for water from the returns. He said you have to install a separate tank for extra water to make up for the limited capacity. Note that I'm not taking about a hot water tank here. He said I'd need an extra tank to augment the water capacity of the boiler's own tank. Sounds really fishy to me. He says it's right there in the fine print of the Weil manual. Is any of that true?



Other than that, he seemed to know steam at least as well as I do after a week on this site and after reading Dan's book.

Rod

Boiler "Tank"

Hi- Some boiler models aren't designed to take a tankless coil. If I remember correctly  the Peerless 63 is one of them. Peerless makes good boilers. I have an oil fired Peerless ECT which does have a HW coil. I happen to prefer Peerless as they are very robust and use steel push nipples between the boiler sections.



Why does he preferred Peerless?  It could be because the Peerless model matched your system's EDR the best. It could be that the local wholesaler stocks Peerless boilers and others are harder to get. I can think of half a dozen reasons why a pro would choose a certain boiler over another. As the boiler companies today all make good boilers I'm not sure that it really matters what boiler you have as long as it is properly matched to your steam system.

 

As for the Weil McLain water capacity, there are some models,,the EG & PEG come to mind, that in certain circumstances may need a reservoir tank to increase the increase the boiler water volume.  For most residential systems this is rather rare/

- Rod

ChrisJ

enough water?

I'm running an EG-45 rated for 392sqft and it is connected to 392sqft of radiation.  I don't run low on water ever even during a 9 degree recovery where the system cycled on pressure one time after an 1 hour 20 minutes of continuous running.

I have also heard of adding a tank for more water capacity, but I have not seen the need on my own system.  There is mention of such a thing in the WM manual, but its only necessary on rare occasions and I believe it applies to all modern low water capacity boilers not just WM.   If you look a WM holds about the same amount of water as any other modern boiler for its size.



I spent months trying to figure out what boiler I wanted to go with.  I ended up with a Weil-Mclain EG series in the end.  My second choice would have been a Burnham IN series.

nicholas bonham-carter

Running out of water

I have such a a reservoir tank on my Peerless 211a, and now that my returns have been repiped it is probably not needed. It is an old hot water system expansion tank on legs to place it at the height of the Normal Water Line of the boiler. It is connected at the top to the equalizer, and at the bottom to the wet return.

If your water steams away at one cup per minute, but only returns at the rate of 1/2 cup per minute, the water level may not be able to keep up, during long periods of steaming. I did not want to have the complication of a condensate tank and pump.

Most likely you will not need it, but if you do it can be added later if a tee has been put in the equalizer, and the wet return. As 1cubic inch of water expands into a cubic foot of steam, there is a lot of cubic feet worth of steam in your boiler.

Maybe their preference for Peerless is due to a better local distributor than any technical difference.

saikosis

Reservoir Pipe

Yup, that's it. I had forgotten the term he used. He called it a reservoir tank. I see it now in the manual with a description of how to calculate if one is needed. Seems really straightforward. He did measure my radiators, but didn't run the EDR calculation yet, so it's not an issue of one manufacturer having a closer match than another. It seemed like he just has a preference for whatever reason. I actually have no problem with that. I'm just concerned that his preference is making him not see other options that might be better for me. I'm also concerned that he's just repeating what the Peerless sales reps tell him about Weil-McLain boilers. Other than that, he seemed like a fairly knowledgable steam guy.



I have 343 square feet, but I have no pipe insulation and I'm missing two radiators that we'd like to add back at some point. If I insulate, the EG-45 would cover me now. Without insulation or if I add those two radiators, I'd be up into the EG-50. They have water content of 9.8 or 11.2 gallons, respectively. The Peerless 63-04L and 63-04, which are roughly equivalent in terms of output, both have have 10.8 gallons. Not much difference at all. In fact, in terms of water content, I'd be better off with the EG-50 than the equivalent Peerless!



Does anyone know the capacity of the Utica Starfire 3 SFH-4150S? That's what I have now. It was installed in 2006 by previous owners. I haven't adjusted the cut-in yet. It's currently set to 2 PSI. I'm not sure what the differential is set to. I think that means we making more steam than we should be. I don't believe we have had problems with the low water cutout and I don't think I ever heard it short cycle. I do know it's oversized though (533 square feet vs. 343 square feet), so maybe the water capacity is also larger.



ChrisJ, I've seen pictures of your install. I'm hoping I end up with something as nice looking. Some parts of your house look just like mine. I have the same offset chimney in the attic that you had. My basement looks similar, although mine is much dirtier than yours. Thankfully, I don't have the same stairs as you. I actually have a good sized bulkhead, so they won't have to wrestle the boiler in the house. When was your house built? Mine was somewhere in the 1830s or 1840s.

nicholas bonham-carter

Boiler water content

The total volume of water in the boiler is not the key point here. It is that amount of water which is needed to raise up the water level from LWCO shut off point to the normal water level. In other words, in my Peerless 211a (1,050,000 btu) I can drain off only a few gallons of water before the boiler shuts off on low water. The passages inside the sections have been made smaller for efficiency, and so hold less water; however there is still enough.--NBC

ChrisJ

Built

Thank you for the compliments saikosis.

We believe the house was built sometime in the 1850s or 1860s due to the saw used to cut the lumber and the style of the windows.



The basement stairs however, were done most likely in the late 1800s as they were cut into the floor later. It appears there was an outside entrance that now interferes with the porch. I guess someone felt a large porch was more important.



The steam system was installed sometime I believe in 1924.

saikosis

Old Houses

My house actually had two entrances at one point, but one was bricked up when someone added a porch. Someone told me that they would sometimes take cattle into the basement of these old houses to heat the house above, which might explain the size of that closed up entrance. Believe it or not, I can speak from experience and say that water hammer is a lot less annoying that a bunch of cows mooing under you all night.



I saw an old thread from you about low water AFTER the thermostat was satisfied. Did you resolve that?

ChrisJ

low water

Yep.

Never figured out why it was happening either but I assume it had to do with dirty / oily boiler water.



After a lot of heating, skimming and cleaning my water level barely drops ever.

saikosis

Water

Ah, okay, that makes sense. It looks like the Peerless manual doesn't mention a reservoir pipe at all while the Weil-McLain has specific instructions. Should I read anything into that? Is the level in Peerless such that water level truly isn't an issue? Am I likely to see a problem with the Weil-McLain or are they just being upfront about a rare problem?