Need help to select between System 2000 EK1 and Burnham MPO-IQ 115

Tonykul

I'm out of heat/hot water. I badly need help to select between System 2000 EK1 and Burnham MPO-IQ 115 ASAP!



System 2000 w/o outdoor reset - since it is low-mass and don't loose heat through chimney extra expense of reset is not justified. Alternative Burnham MPO-IQ 115 including outdoor reset. Both include indirect water heater. Best quote I got - System 2000 is 13% higher then Burnham MPO-IQ.



I have also looked at the Buderus 115 but was told its has OEM most parts and installer doesn't want to go this way - its expensive for him. 



 Any suggestions or additional questions are appreciated!

Aaron_in_Maine

System 2000

Ek1 is going to use less fuel than the Burnham. Also your not allowed to post prices on here!

Tonykul

Sure but does fuel savings justifies higher price?

Thank you Aaron_in_Maine! I'm sure you're right, but does fuel savings justifies higher price? And what about reliability and service costs? I removed actual quote on your suggestion, I just wanted to compare. One unintended consequence - you've seen it anyway - is it reasonable?

nicholas bonham-carter

Outdoor reset

Is this gas or oil?

The outdoor reset, makes sure that the boiler is in condensing mode more often, and has little to do with chimney heat loss. Most systems don't need to supply 170 deg water all winter, just during the few coldest days, so the system ramps down the temperature on cool nights, and up in sub zero temps. It is worth while.

One advantage of the condensing boiler is the ability to change to a different location in the house, as you are not restricted to being near the chimney.

Try to find out where parts for future repairs will come from. Is there a stocking distributor nearby?--NBC

Aaron_in_Maine

Yes

All things considered I personally would put in the EK 1.

CMadatMe

I Don't Buy That

The System 2000 will save more fuel then the Burnham MPO. Both, no matter how you look at it, fire at a fixed rate, I can pre and post purge my pumps on the Bunrham no different then that EK. That Burnham will take 110 degree return water temp so with the cost of a simple plug in ODR card I can make it more efficient then that System 2000 at a heck of a lesser price.



I'd even go to the extent that one could take a Crown TWZ, standard pin boiler, add a Taco SR501-OR and make it just as or more efficient then that system 2000.



The equipment isn't a magic wand to fuel savings the installation is.

Tonykul

outdoor reset control

It's oil fired boiler. I intend to go with System 2000. About outdoor reset - look at discussion: http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?41510-Outdoor-Reset-Controls-Worth-it

Dana talks there about it and  purge controls: "There are a couple of a downsides to outdoor reset control in oil-fired systems with low-mass radiation such as fin tube:







1: As the output temp drops the boiler will short-cycle since the

boiler's output BTUs outstrips the radiation emittance at those temps,

resulting in diminished boiler efficiency and higher maintenance costs







2: When the temp of the water returning from the boiler is lower than

~140F there's a risk of acidic destructive condensation on the flues and

in the boiler's heat exchangers, resulting in shorter (sometimes MUCH

shorter) boiler or flue-liner lifespan, so there's a lower limit of

~155F on the boiler output temps. Then when you consider that most

systems are over-designed for the actual heat loads, and the radiation

could actually support the load during the coldest 1% of heating season

hours with water temps 140-150F, there's no real advantage to the

outdoor reset approach in such systems.







A better approach for many/most high-mass oil system is to use "smart"

heat purging controls on the boilers that "learn" the system and

anticipate the end of thermostat calls for heat. This type of control

turns off the burner prior to the end of the T-stat call and allows the

stored heat in the boiler's thermal mass to finish it off, parking the

boiler near it's low-limit rather than halting abruptly at full temp,

abandoning a lot of heat in the boiler. On a new call for heat the

boiler is further purged of heat down to the low-limit before firing up

the burner. This ends up maximizing the lengths of burns utilizing the

thermal mass of the boiler at a high hysteresis, reducing the number of

burns (minimizing efficiency-robbing short-cycles), and by parking the

boiler at a lower temp between calls standby losses are also minimized.

The Beckett Heat Manager or Intellicon 3250 HW+ are both retrofit

controls for heat-purge operation. Some newer boilers have similar

controls integrated into them (eg. Energy Kinetics System 2000)..."

Tonykul

System 2000

Thank you! I just replied to Nicholas with some smart looking quote I don't fully understand been simple home owner w/o HVAC education. I'm getting System 2000 for extra gran. It's must be easier then go with custom alterations. And who would do them for me here anyway. What I really trying to get at whether outdoor reset would benefit System 2000 as oppose to MPO-IQ. My installer, who's an engineer with 40 years of experience and probably benefits from extra stuff I buy, says no. I just dug out above mention quote of Dana from different site saying - no it won't, if I understood him at all. I'm ready to bag it up and be done with it.

Tonykul

System 2000

Thanks Chris,



I posted reply to you above as second reply to Nicholas. The other thing that bothers me is that System 2000 has steel walls not Cast iron. I have very high acidity/low PH from my well water. My installer agreed to install some valve allowing to put in some neutralizer. Since boiler hydronic  system runs same water all the time it should solve the problem. Right?

DanLC

VP Sales & Marketing at US Boiler

Tony -- lots of confusing information out there. Of course, I would like to see you use a Burnham Brand MPO IQ -- I am the sales executive for this brand. First, the MPO is rated at 87% efficiency. Saying the System 2000 boiler will save more fuel than the MPO just plain doesn't make sense. Look at their rated efficiency and ours at 87% -- that's the story. Second, we have to do a much better job about describing our controls & outdoor reset. Absolutely outdoor reset saves money -- typical savings in publications point to 5% to 15%. This is very dependent upon several variables, but it's fairly simple. Outdoor reset is about fall & spring -- your home doesn't need 170 degree or 180 degree water in the fall & spring to keep you comfortable. Outdoor reset allows your boiler to fire at a lower temperature. If it's 45 degrees outside, you may only need 140 degree water in your radiation. Heating a closed system to 140 degrees instead of 180 degrees saves money. The MPO does not condense -- outdoor reset and condensing boilers are two different subjects. Thirdly, our controls are co-developed with Honeywell, the world leader in HVAC controls. Our outdoor reset does not cause your boiler to short cycle -- we've made our controls much smarter than that. I'm happy to have a conversation at any time to help if I am able.

Jim Hankinson

System 2000

To get a better understanding of how 2 boilers of equal AFUE can have widely varying system efficiencies just visit the Energy Kinetics website www.energykinetics.com



As far as the water that will feed the system, a quart of 8-Way boiler treatment is included with each system that is to be installed after the installation is complete. It helps keep the system clean and increases the ph.

Tonykul

to System 2000

Dear Jim,



I'm sold on System 2000. The question is configuration. What I really trying to get at whether outdoor reset would benefit

System 2000 as oppose to MPO-IQ. My installer, who's an engineer with 40

years of experience and probably benefits from extra stuff I buy, says

no.Is it so or I'd benefit from outdoor resetcontrol?



Thanks, Tony

CMadatMe

I Haven't Read This Much BS

In a long time. Great marketing hype can't displace physic friends. All boilers mfg after Sept 2012 have thermal purge built into them. ITS THE LAW. Boiler will not fire until it sees less then 140 degree water or 2 minutes!!!!!! Hello, PRE_PURGE!!!!!!!!



Secondly, for every 3 degrees you can run a heating system with less then 180 degree water you save 1% of fuel, period, fact!



Low Mass (System 2000) High Mass (MPO) which one must fire more cycles?



Lastly, a boiler is no more then a heating plant. It makes energy period, that's its job. What's more important :



a. How You Make Energy



b. How You Use That Energy



c. Combination of Both



Looking at efficiency based on the boiler is like looking at MPG on car, both are dependent on lots of variables to get the best out of them.



I'll go for the high mass boiler, that cycles less and I can do a lot more with from an efficiency standpoint.



I'm done ranting now. This type of conversation is getting real old, like 15 years old when the Viessmann Vitola was the only true 3-pass around. Nobody got it then either except for few..

Jim Hankinson

System 2000

Sorry, Chris, but the law says either thermal purge or outdoor reset.