Am I missing a header entirely?

rhodie

Hello. First post here. Just moved to New England from PA and after purchasing a home with really old oil boiler that had a huge crack in the plate, we decided to replace it and convert to gas. We interviewed 8 contractors, most of whom didn't do a calculation before recommending the PIN-5 Burnham boiler. The ones who did the calculation said to go with the PIN-4, so that's what we did. This is a National Grid rebate boiler, so those were our two options. Anyhow, the job is done, and I thought the guys we hired did a good a job, and worked for 2 full days on it, but looking on this site now about near piping, I'm a little worried.



Only one supply riser is being utilized, and that one bends a couple times up to a T, each side of which then go up to two mains. One main goes to the front of the house. One to the rear. The returns come off the mains. I'm not sure I even have a header, and the equalizer comes right off the riser, I think. (I'm new to the terminology). So, I'm going to attach a couple pics for you guys, and would really appreciate your thoughts and answers to these related questions.



Would using two risers increase efficiency and lower the amount of gas I consume?

Does wet steam decrease efficiency or just agitate the boiler or piping?

The main and differential indicators on the pressuretrol are both set to 1.5, it seems.



Is it reasonable to ask the installer to fix the piping if there's a problem?



It doesn't look like the diagram in the PIN-4 manual on top, but the side piping sort of does. They replaced the copper with steel piping on the returns, and I think it looks better than before, but I'm really worried about the top, and this being inefficient, especially after spending so much to save by not using oil.



Thanks!!

nicholas bonham-carter

Dude where's my header?

I haven't looked online at the piping instructions for your boiler, but I am sure that piping is not what is specified in the manual.

The riser(s) should extend up from the boiler, turn horizontal into the header (Cadillac installations use a larger header pipe). On the header, between the riser and the equalizer, there will be a tee for each of your 2 mains, thus avoiding the "bull-headed tee", which can interrupt the flow of steam, and make it condense. (Wet steam). The header dries out the steam by being at least 15 inches long to separate out any water droplets from the steam before it goes up to the radiators.

To make the best use/adjustment of the pressuretrol, an accurate low pressure gauge (0-3 psi) is needed. Most people get tired of their inaccuracies, and get a vaporstat instead.

Study the manual and use a felt tip pen to label all the parts, and you will get a better understanding of where they went wrong.--NBC

rhodie_

thank you!

i do have the installation instructions. i should have know this might be a problem when they said how hard it was to get the bushings out of the sides of the boiler, and that they never understood why burnham puts them in there. i hope that's not an issue, too. the bull-headed tee was already there, but in order to follow the specs in the manual, which look pretty standard, they would have had to fix that. instead, they just connected to the problem tee. i was thinking because the tee splits, then goes up and over to each main, maybe there'd be some water separation there, but there's really nowhere for it to go. it's not that noisy. i was just wondering if by not using both supply lines, i would be wasting gas, or if the wet steam wastes gas or is damaging to my system. not sure how the inspection will go, which could be today, but if this is a problem, i can't see how he'd pass it. i would think they would need to repipe it for me if that's the case. so frustrating. thanks for the help.!

Rod

No Header

Hi- You’re correct, you don’t have a proper header. What you want is to have the boiler piped as per page 17, Fig.24 in the Installation manual and use the “Alternate piping method” for the boiler risers and header. (This “alternate” configuration is known as a “dropheader”)

While it says that the IN4 can be piped using one boiler riser, if there is a second boiler riser port, it should always be used as this cuts the steam velocity in half.  Less velocity means less water being carried up with the steam into the system. As NBC mentioned ideally the header pipe is one pipe size larger, however , if it matches the manufacturers instructions that is acceptable.

The boiler riser and header configuration is very important as it acts as a water separator and drys out the steam. Here’s a good video on the important of near boiler piping.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/107/Steam-Heating/118/Steam-boiler-near-boiler-piping

The header piping needs to redone and should have been done in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions.



The other thing that I would have corrected is to have each steam main have its own riser pipe connecting it with the header pipe.

The boiler piping should have been done according to the manual and the installers are responsible to do that. As to the second boiler riser, the dropheader, and risers going to the mains you might want to discuss that and consider paying an added charge.



You system is what is known as a counterflow system. I’ve attached a diagram of a typical counterflow system.  Note the location of the main vents. What do you have for main vents now?

Proper capacity  main venting is very important.



Just saw your most recent reply- Don't count on the inspector saying anything as most of them don't understand steam.  They're more concerned to see that the vent (chimney) piping and gas piping were done properly. I see that you already understand the problems connected with the bullheaded tee.

If you're not doing so already, you might want to follow this post "New Furnace Setup- What Do You Think?" as this homeowner has a similar problem in that his piping size doesn't match the manufacturer's installation specs. Note Bob C's comments as to warranty as this is a good counterpoint.

- Rod

rhodie_

thank you again!

wow, you guys are awesome. the plumber is a super nice guy, so hopefully this won't be an issue, but i think paying for the extra work, and having him fix the problem, will be a nice compromise. i'm not sure about the vents. i don't really know what that means. the big vent that goes to the flue? sorry, i know i'm ignorant. this is why i was hoping my plumber would do this right at the onset. i'm really not sure how it will work with all the piping there. if both risers come up 24" over the waterline, then curl over and down, can the drop header be way lower, or does it still have to be above the water line? that would put this new header behind the boiler, and under the flue pipe. but the mains are directly above this, on both sides, so if we ran to the right and sent two more risers up, one would catch the main but it would need to be sawed down, and the other one would have to back to the left to catch the other main, and s turn to line it up. i guess that is ok, but i have a water heater to the right as well. this site is a TREMENDOUS resource. i can't thank you guys enough. wish i'd come here when i was dealing with the chimney reliner. i'm not sure i even needed to have that done, but everybody said with gas, you have to or it'll condense on the terra cotta liner i had, which was quite old.

SWEI

plumber is a super nice guy

so I'd offer to pay him a bit more to pipe the second riser and create a drop header if he'd agree to fix the bullhead tee.  24" is a minimum - more is better.

rhodie_

i took a look down in the cellar

looks like this can happen without too much extra effort. thanks for the help. just to make sure, the specs show that the top of the riser needs to be at least 24", but then it can curl down to a drop header that's not that far above the water line, right? seems to suggest that in the diagram. i think i have 2" pipe, so i'd want a 2.5" drop header, and then at least 2.5" risers connecting to the mains? i think the equalizer is only 2", too, so i might have to just keep it all at 2" for this.

SWEI

24" is a minimum

more is better.  Once the turn is made downward to the header, the job is done.  The height of the drop header is not critical.



What size are the mains leaving the bullhead tee?

Rod

Main Vents

Hi-

Boiler Risers -  As has been mentioned 24 inches above the boiler’s waterline is a “minimum”. Dan recommends you use a measurement of 24 inches from the top surface of the boiler cabinet. It is the height of the boiler risers that is important.



Main Vents- Each steam main need to have a main vent (s). On a counterflow system the main vents should be located at the end of the each steam main just past the last radiator’s lateral pipe away from the boiler. Look for a fixture attached to the steam main which looks like either a bullet pointing up or a can of tuna on its side. (See attached diagram)



 Main vents are high capacity vents which allow air to escape from the steam main so it can be filled with steam. When steam reaches the main vent, the heat of the steam causes the main vent to close at which time the steam begins to enter the radiators.  Using high capacity main vents is beneficial. Radiator vents are much smaller vents and using too large a capacity vent on a radiator can cause problems. If you don’t have main vents, you need to install them as they will greatly improve the operation of your system. If you measure each your steam mains, pipe size and length, we can calculate the amount of venting you need on each main.



There are some very good books on steam heating available in the “Shop” section at the top of this page. Start with a book called “We Got Steam Heat!” and then move on to “The Lost Art of Steam Heating” and “Greening Steam”. You might want to take a look at this website:  http://www.gwgillplumbingandheating.com/   Gerry Gill is a very experienced Cleveland steampro and his website has a lot of good info on steamheating.

- Rod

Steve Nichols

antifreeze?

Hi, the first picture shows the side of the boiler with the gauge glass. The water in the glass looks greenish, so I am guessing anti freeze was introduced to the system.   I believe these systems work best using straight water, but the pros will kick in if I'm mistaken.  You will always get some rust due to the nature of cast iron water, and oxygen. 

After the NBP is done, and if you decide to run straight water, be sure to bring that water to a boil  once filled since the oxygen in the water will eat away at the boiler sections, particularly at the waterline.

Paul S_3

anti freeze

I don't think the green water is anti freeze.....it's probably surge master which turns the water green....and should not be left in the boiler water...and probably means no one skimmed boiler from all that cutting oil.....Paul s

rhodie_

Thanks fellas

Sorry for the delay after your sage advice but I accidentally asked to reset my password and finally found the email in my junk folder. Regarding main vents, I don't think I have them. I looked everywhere. In fact, I think it's possible the whole main is just one huge loop around the perimeter of the house. I have to check that more as the finished basement is built around one of the pipes. The green stuff is indeed surge master. They said if it's green, that's good, and to flush it out after the boiler cycles a few times, but flushing immediately will just waste it as they just put it in. The boiler's been dormant for a few days now as it's been 70 every day and our house is well insulated. Should I just run it anyway once more, or just drain it asap? I don't want to ruin the lining of a new boiler, for sure. I am wondering, too, if the installer makes a huge deal about repiping, since they bull headed t has been there for 30 years, is it really that bad? I mean, don't the mains separate a lot of water from the steam, too, or can that only happen in a header? And what's the deal with wet steam? Does it ruin the piping? Or cause you to burn more fuel? Also, is adding that extra supply line/riser, going to cut energy costs noticeably, or is it just a wet steam thing?

Paul S_3

rhodie

the boiler was probably surging due too cutting oil/oil from new boiler ,improper near boiler piping & bull headed tee's....and thats why they added surgemaster.....after a steam boiler is installed it MUST be skimmed within the next few days....i do not see any full sized skim tappings added to your boiler they should be at the water line....skimming a steam boiler is the removal of oil that sits on top of the water.....oil causes wet steam and surging / foaming ETC....wet steam decreases your overall effeciency for the system..also your near boiler piping is WITHOUT A DOUBT not per manufacture specs....and that causes wet steam...the bullhead tees i believe causes surging too...and they used only one tapping both shouldve been used...when you use both tappings & proper near boiler piping and size, you slow the steams exit velocity considerably and it does not suck water out of boiler(wet steam)....and the used regular black steel fittings ....you have to use steam cast fittings.....theres no swing joint on the header (if thats even one) a swing joint allows for expansion and takes the stress off of boiler sections...not having a swing joint will decrease the life of the boiler and can crack boiler sections....i believe i see a dry return coming down to your boiler with no vent.....look around your basement in the joist bays for any main venting....they must be there....if not that itself wastes fuel...your relying on just the radiators vents to get rid of air...(it looks like you have a counterflow system look for vents at end of main) PAUL S

rhodie_

thanks paul

i did some poking around after firing the boiler this am and noticing that one of the radiators, the only one that has an adjustable vent, was whistling from initial fire up until every radiator was filled. i don't think i have a main vent at all. in fact, the reason I have a bullshead t is that my old system is just one big main loop all the way around the house. i'm pretty sure, especially since the one on the left is way higher. it's actually pitched away from the boiler, and there's a return pipe on it, which seemed pointless, but i think it's just for the first radiator. So i think it's pitched all the way around the basement to the left, making 4 lefts, slowly descending, with another return pipe just before it connects a little lower, into the right side of the bullshead t. assuming that's how it's piped (and this was done in 1942, I think), it's going to be a beast to redo it. should i just have the installer break the T after the huge loop, cap it just before it reconnects, and put one big big vent there? the problem is that the main is higher on the left, and slopes down all the way around, so i'm not sure that would help. i drained and dumped the water 3x today. i need to refire to get the oxygen out i guess. oh, the pressuretrol is set to 1.5 and 1.5 differential as well. doesn't that mean it's cutting in at zero? seems odd. at least they set it under 2.0, and it seems to be working, but it does take about 15 minutes to heat up. not sure if that seems right. should the radiators heat up slowly? one section at a time? that's what seems to be happening. it's pretty quiet though, other than that one whistling one.

rhodie_

2 inches all around

Thanks so much for the link, and the image! After spending a bunch of time down there the last couple nights, I don't think I have 2 mains after all. I believe I have one. It's 2" and starts high, sloping all the way around the perimeter of the basement, feeding 8 radiators, and finally reconnecting to the other side of the bullshead tee. I'm almost positive there are no main vents, as the last radiator on the loop whistles the whole time every one fills (which means perhaps all the steam, while hitting the t, is just going left anyway?



So, I'm only utilizing one 2" feed pipe instead of 2, and have no header. But all piping is 2", so I'm wondering if actually adding the other feeder will help, or just clog up any header I have the plumber install. I mean, I only have a 2" pipe to feed the main anyway.



I suppose the best thing would be to separate this main "loop" and cap each end with a vent, but the loop us built into the finished basement, so it'd have to be torn out to do this. They built a little trough for the insulated pipe to rest in as it travels from the last boiler on one side, to the first boiler on the other side of the house.



If I had a riser feeding each side of the supply, would that help? Or what about just breaking the tee on the right, capping it there, and putting one vent for the whole perimeter main pipe. If I did that, I'm assuming I would still just use one 2" supply pipe, into a new header, up to the high main on the left, and that would go all the way around , filling them one at a time, but more efficiently as there would be a vent at the end. Right now, with no vent, I think I'm feeding steam in both directions, but super slowly. I just don't think tapping into the main on the built-in side of the house (exactly opposite the boiler) is possible.



Any thoughts would be super appreciated!