Plumber oversizing boiler?

Edub

Converting to Gas hot water baseboard, from oil steam heat with cast iron radiators. 1933 built bungalow with 1,800 sq ft. 1.5 bath, i'm currently in the process of finishing my basement with a full bath and family room which is about 700 sq ft making the total around 2,500 sq ft. I have replaced all the lead weight windows with new anderson windows, insulated the attic, the walls are insulated but was done before i bought the house. The reason for the conversion is to get rid of oil most importantly, get a more balanced even heat, be able to add multiple zones ( 1st floor, second floor, and basement when finished. ) And to also get rid of the low lying steam piping in the basement. I realize i'll never recoup the savings from switching over to gas and hot water baseboard. But my wife and I plan on starting a family here and don't plan on moving any time soon. To help with cost from this project i'll be removing the old boiler and water tank, removing the oil tank and also removing all the old steam piping and radiators. I have done a ton of research on boilers and different types of heat. Alot of info on this forum which was also a huge help. My first plumber to come in, which came highly recommended, did a heat loss calculation and measured for all baseboard. From all my research and reading on this forum I realize the most important thing in the process is the heat loss calculation, thats why I bring up this question. I wanted to go with the PTE 110 Triangle Tube prestige excellence with the 14 gallonin-cabinet Indirect Fired Water Heater. But when I received my estimate the plumber said the PTE 110 was to small for my needs and he wanted to go with the Prestige solo 175 with a smart-40 36 gallon indirect storage tank. He said i'll be able to see the heat loss calc. upon signing the contract. Do most plumbers work this way? That just seems weird to me. I-am now in the process of doing my on heat loss, but doesn't it seem with the rough numbers I gave you that he is well oversizing my boiler?

SWEI

62 BTUs per square foot?

Which is what the 175 implies, is just flat out wrong.  The PE110 does not have much water heating capacity, and would still leave you at 40 BTU/ft, which does not match your description of the current envelope.  Find someone competent who can do a proper heat loss calc -- but first, are you absolutely, positively certain you can't keep the steam system?



If you must have baseboard, you should seriously consider using something designed for low water temps.

Edub

Plumber oversizing boiler?

Well after all my research my final conclusion was to go with gas hot water mod/con and panel radiators. But two problems occurred,1 I can't seem to find a plumber- heating contractor in my area that has the experience with new panel radiators and 2 the cost. As I am already spending quite a bit of money.

CMadatMe

Why Not Keep

The rads and convert them to hot water? Then you'd have control of each room via a thermostatic valve on them. I'm with Kurt find a guy that knows how to do a heat loss. Where are you located?

Edub

Plumber oversizing boiler?

I've read mixed views on keeping the rads and converting them to hot water. I live in Warwick, RI.

Edub

P.S

I did do a local contractor search on this site and did get a name. But when I called it says his mail box is full and he hasn't returned my emails. I don't want to post the name of the business, but he was the only contractor that came up in my area, and from his web site and listing on this forum seemed to be a perfect match to what I was looking for.

CMadatMe

Go To The Viessmann

I'm from Westerly originally and you shouldn't have a problem finding a good contractor. Take a skip over to Jefferson Ave and the Viessmann showroom. Taco in Cranston also offers a contractor location on their Web Site. HeatPro who is hear quite often is in Smithfield area I believe.



AS for mix reviews..Don't understand its a piece of cast iron and is a condensing boilers perfect match. Done hundreds of conversions. Its not the rad its usually the install that is the problem.

Edub

Viessmann

I was very interested in Viessmann also it just seemed that most local plumbers I have spoke too seem to like triangle tube better. I was told their easier to install and their costumer service is much better, also easier to get parts for. I have been wanting to go to Viessmann since they are literary 5 min from my house. But can never make it their during the week due to work and their closed on saturdays. Triangle Tube and Viessmann are really the two I have narrowed it down to.

CMadatMe

If You Want To Go Over

I could arrange it. Installing a Viessmann is no different then installing a Triangle and how can it be hard to get parts when they are 5 minutes away from you. PS..There are like 4 wear parts in a Vitodens boiler...Electrode, Ionization Rod, Flow Switch, and maybe an outdoor sensor.

The Steam Whisperer (Formerly Boilerpro)

Even Heat, Zoning

You don't have to pull out your steam to get even heat and zoning.   Steam can be easily set up for room by room control to be very comfortable heat....without the huge expense of changing out the system.   You'll also see very high efficiency at the boiler.....remember steam uses almost no electricity, where hot water uses quite a bit.  You can't go by AFUE numbers to find out overall energy use.

Edub

Low lying steam pipes?

I will start researching more on converting my radiators to hot water. I would love to be able to give the Viessmann showroom as visit.

CMadatMe

Sent You An Email

Via your contact info here. Gave you a contractor to call. Already spoke to Viessmann, my main man Dave would be more then happy to give you a tour. Just let me know or just contact the Viessmann Factory Rep I gave you the number for.



Are your rads single pipe?

Edub

Radiator placement

One thing about switching the rads to hot water is some of our rads are placed away from windows and on the opposite side of the room. I was always taught you wanted the most heat in the part of the room where your most heat loss is. Also I was told that you can pick up rust and particles from inside the old radiators that you would need a filter? I have some more studying to do.

Edub

Rads

Yes the radiators are single piped

CMadatMe

Move Them

You'd still be removing the existing piping. I'd just use a low loss header which will act as a dirt and air separator in lieu of piping pri/sec piping. All the rads would be fed more then likely with 3/8" Pex via using a radiant manifold. Similar to the attached page 16 of the attached where the low loss header in place of the buffer tank.



Read this for single entry conversion.



http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/getattachment/16707372-633d-4cff-a1c4-357fcfcaa8ef/Steam-to-Hot-Water-Conversion-Valve.aspx

Edub

!

Its really sad how some plumbers don't have a clue. If I didn't do all my research and asked for help this plumber would have charged me a **** load of money for my conversion and I would have had a considerable oversized boiler coasting more money in the long run.

Edub

other opinions

if I did switch to baseboard instead of keeping the rads can I still get the mod/con boiler to run efficiently, with multiple zones? I was told with the low running water temp on the mod/con boilers, you have to make sure you have the right amount of baseboard planned out?

SWEI

mod/con with baseboard

Will work best if you size the baseboard at 140F or lower.  There are some newer baseboard designs which make this easy (some of which rely less on convection than generic HW baseboard does.)  You can mix and match with CI rads, but will need a clueful contractor who can properly assess and re-rate the existing rads.



If this were my house, I'd seriously consider steam modernization as an alternative.  Far less up-front cost and no disruption of the existing woodwork.  You really owe it to yourself to investigate both.



Any MA steam pros who travel down south?

Edub

Heatingpro 02920

Is he a plumber in my area? After reading so many post in this forum I have stubbled upon him quite a bit. I would really love to have a contractor that knows his stuff take a look at my system and give me different options or his opinion on what I should do. I feel at this point I'm in research over load. I'm listening to so many different ideas now I don't now which way to turn. I thought I had narrowed it down to exactly what I wanted but now unsure. And after my first plumber over sizing my boiler I need someone on here that comes reputable. I was given a heating contractor from Chris but they seem to specialize more in the radiant system side. The gas line should be in any day now and I need to finally make up my mind.

CMadatMe

He Is

I believe he is in Smithfield area. I don't see them as specializing in radiant but rather specializing in low temperature hydronics and that's what your after. Someone who knows low temp hydronics and condensing boilers. HeatPro will treat you right. Give him a call.

Edub

Thanks

Can't thank you guys enough for all the help and ideas, this is an awesome resource for anyone wanting to ask questions or learn. And Chris I setup an appointment to swing by Viessmann on tuesday Thank You.

CMadatMe

Come Back

And let us know what you think after your visit.

Edub

Looking forward

to get a tour around the Viessmann offices to in Warwick RI, I'm sure I'll be impressed. I still really triangle tube too though.

Edub

Very impressed

Had a great learning experience at Viessmann, made me want to go back to school and learn a new trade. That being said I really would like to get a hold of Heatingpro 02920. I sent him a message but haven't heard back from him plus he hasn't posted here in awhile. Dose anyone know the name of his business so I can give him a call. Seems like the perfect guy for the job, but can't get a hold of him.

CMadatMe

What Did You Think About

The boiler itself? He hasn't been here for a while. I hope everything is ok with him. Send Tim McElwain an email. I know he has his contact info..

Edub

Yes

the boiler, the heat exchanger, the settings to set temperature curve just overall a great boiler

NYplumber

new model

Viessman is above the rest. It may pay to wait till September and get the new boiler with integrated dhw tank.

Edub

Yes I heard

Dave who gave me the tour said they just got them in and are currently in the process of installing them in the showroom. Looks like I might have to go back.

CMadatMe

My Main Man

Dave goes above and beyond all the time. Love that guy.

Edub

Question?

The classes Viessmann offer at the Warwick RI office, my father in law is a boiler inspector. Are those classes offered to him if he wants to take them. Dose it cost anything? This is something he dosent really need for work but is something he wants to take on the side.