Time to choose a boiler

Rich_49

Boiler choice

Grandview ,  You may want to check out HTP .  You can do both jobs with one unit  , take a look at the Versa Hydro , Phoenix or if you MUST have 2 pieces of equipment try this Versa Flame with a storage tank . Large heat exchangers , lots of mass (less short cycling) , real good efficiency .  They even have a real nice video with some Dan Holohan guy looking at some of their stuff . Just my .02 !  

Rich_49

Under Cabinets

Putting heat under the cabinetry is not a big expense but can provide big dividends . Look up Mean Radiant Temperature . Most kitchen cabinets are on outside walls and will conduct cold from the outside . Guess what happens when you walk by or stand next to a big cold surface in your nice warm house ? Anyone care to guess . that is almost the same as saying it does not make sense to install under shower floors , tubs . No , Grandview I say install under all of it and increase your MRT . Not installing under them is just like the difference between WB & SB , a lost opportunity for Thermal transfer . Anyone agree ?

Gordy

Depends Rich

If you so happen to have a cabinet with baskets for potatoes, and onion, bread etc the stored items could do with out heating.



You could not really depend on that output under cabinets to off set the losses in the room.



The biggest MRT factor would be the countertops so apply the radiant loop to the counters, then you could off set some losses, and have a nicer MRT.



Put the tubing where it will have the most output otherwise its wasted.



One thing could be said is running tubing under cabinets may be conducive to lower pressure drop in loops with less bends in a layout vs working around cabinet layout, but that all depends on the layout of the cabinets vs the kitchen area.

Grandview

tubing under cabinetry

In my case, none of the cabinets are on outside walls. The guy from North East Radiant planned the system tubing not to run under the cabinets. When I asked him about it prior to layout, he said he thought the tubing shouldn't go under the cabinets.

Rich_49

Gordy

I don't believe onions , bread and potatoes would mind a 72* ambient temperature as much as your belly would mind a large wooden surface with a large stone surface on top of it sucking the heat out of you .  I have found through going on "my heat isn't working well , installed by others calls" that in the design stage these gurus did not enter unheated area w or w/o loops in the calcs . This will always lead to low SWT's or a lack of heat , probably doesn't matter much because they are the same guys whom set their mixing valves and outdoor reset curves to the wrong parameters too , 110 SWT = 115 out and 105 back , you know . 

 I am that nut that insists on control is all .  I often will leave the tubing out from under cabinets at the floor level however and opt to add that tubing in contact with the top , same with whirlpool decks and the like . At least your not losing that square footage and believing that you can deliver the same comfort with less emitter . Just sayin . 

Rich_49

tubing design

Grandview,

        Rob and others at NRT are usually pretty good designers . I doubt you have anything to worry about , they would have certainly made the appropriate SWT and output per sq ft adjustments . Was just pointing out because someone else may be reading this and using the information that is not involved with an educated designer .

    People building their own house may not be aware of the things Gordy and others here are . Some designers / installers are in fact poorly trained other than what the supply house salesman told them or designed for them . That is why so many radiant jobs get installed so poorly . Does not seem that you suffer that possibility though . 

Gordy

Accounting for

The lack of radiant surface should be a given in the calcs. But the toe kick area will retain a lot of the heat in my opinion given the 4" air space thus warming the interior of the cabinet a little warmer than 72* . Applying the tubing area to a more freely radiant surface would be more effective, like you said counters, and surround surfaces.





But if your willing to lay a little extra tubing can't hurt other than what I mentioned as a concern. But I would not count in my calcs for full potential output. If your short there is always radiant ceilings or walls to make up the short fall even panel rads.

Grandview

NRT-NEH-****?:)

thanks Rich, glad you like NRT but I'm using NEH Hope you like them too:) In fact has anyone out there used them:)?

Rich_49

NRT

LMAO . Grandview , NRT is North East Radiant Tecchnologies , the guys you atated have done your design .

Grandview

my loop layout

Here's my loop layout if anyone has some input. I'm assuming most will agree the loops should be under beds? Small closets I'm assuming not, except walk-in.

Gordy

Looks good

From what I can see Grandview.



I can't really read the columns with circuit lengths, but swear I see 340' as one of them.



Water temps 110* is that correct?