What Happened to Triangle Tube's

ced48

Mini Smart?

heatpro02920

gone

I don't think there was as much of a market as they thought...

ced48

Does Anyone Know

how well they worked? I might be able to pick one up, but there is not a lot of information on them out there. What kind of boiler net input did the need?

heatpro02920

ced

what are you trying to do with it? TT's tech support would be best for answering your technical questions...



As an indirect for an entire house, I wouldn't bother, not really what it was made for. I have a customer that has a tt boiler {with the older control} and one of these hanging under it, it makes enough hot water for one shower to run at once {which is fine for him, even though he has 2.5 baths, he lives alone}, but the original installer didnt secure it correctly so I had to build a pad for the bracket , changed it from a 007 to a much slower circ, and installed, and added a thermal ex tank... plus for him to get enough hot water the boiler is set at 200 for dhw and he has the mixing valve after the indirect...



IMO, a brazed plate exchanger would do a better job for less money, I have installed plenty of them, you can buy it oversized and insulate it yourself {they sell them insulated but $$$$ you can do it much cheaper}... It works much better..



So what is the use you are looking to get out of it..



I like the idea of the mini tank, but I would use it in the return loop and run my domestic through it before it goes into the primary indirect, this would cool your returns and preheat your domestic supply... but again a plate x can do this too..

SWEI

preheat in return loop

Makes a lot of sense.  Is there a tankless I could pair with it that will run at max efficiency with low ∆Ts?

heatpro02920

Swei

A couple notes about preheating using the return, first I don't like preheating to a tankless, they seem to have trouble with low deltas, propane units will actually soot up after a while if the delta starts to close too much... IMO just size the tankless for the job as a stand alone unit, if you need 5gpm with a 75 degree raise then get a unit that does that...

another note is, don't equate the preheat when sizing the indirect, size the indirect normally...



I have played with preheating DHW with a lot of jobs, mostly using returns in medium to high temp system using mod/con boilers... It works very well, a quality 30 plate unit, with insulation and unions installed in the secondaries return will grab some energy and sometimes give you the low return temp needed to get you condensing... I have played with circulating the dhw side ,but found the best bet is to just install it inline with nothing fancy in between. Most hot water uses are less than 2 gallons, so I found it works well having that stored energy feeding your tank instead of feeding it 45 degree water. {does the savings equal the cost of the equipment? Im not sure, I have yet to install one in an exisitng system, every time I have done it it was a new system}



Another type I have done, is in a radiant system, It was a high temp boiler fed 3 loops of baseboard 190*, and they added a loop of radiant to a slab addition. I installed a large plate exchanger in the radiants supply before the return mixing to lower the temp, I used a circulator and an aquastat with their existing indirect, it worked very well, cooled the radiant supply down from 145 to 110 pretty uniformly and made their indirect hardly run its boiler side circulator... This was a problem they had on an install someone else did, their radiant loop was getting way too much temp because their returns were too hot, to their defense they tried everything before I got there, slower pumps, lower temps, ect, but that hurt the rest of the houses comfort and their indirect was under sized.. I killed 2 birds with one stone by doing what I did...



I would like to see someone do some real tests and write something up about preheating using return or radiant supplies, I think it is an untapped resource. And using a small tank in the domestic feed line with a small bronze/ss circ that is wired to only run when the boiler is circulating heat would work great... I have done them where I just run a 009 off of the systems circs power line so when the zone circ was running so was the s/s 009... But with out any idea of your savings, we can not know if its worth the effort, I would hate to install a $300 tank, $200 circ, $200 of piping and $300 of labor system {$1000} if over the life of the system it only saves you $50????

ced48

What i Am Looking

for is the best solution for DHW in a small, 1 bath home. Two daily showers, and not much more. Space is an issue, 2' x 3' closet. Boiler will be a Lochinvar 55.

SWEI

thanks, that helps

straight HX on the preheat, then into a tank.  I have a big commercial job where this might be worth a try.

ced48

Heatpro02920-

I am 02891- I like your creative approach to things-I really am tying to come up with a heating/DHW design that's just right this little ranch house. "Sandy" has motivated me to get the system out of the walkout basement, and up to higher ground.

heatpro02920

Is that Westerly ced?

Have you done the heat loss? Did you already buy the wh55 boiler?



I actually just got back from charlestown {matunuch beach road}...



Generally small houses with small loads and small dhw needs, can sometimes be tough to choose a design for...



What do you have for heat emitters, baseboad, hydroairs, ect?



Im sure if you want to do something creative you can.. I will gladly help you with ideas, just need to let me know what kind of emitters, and what your boiler temps will be....



I am doing more and more systems out of the basement, I have done them in kitchens, master baths, and laundry rooms, with the aesthetics, ease of venting, quiet running, and pex people are warming up to making their boilers and water heaters part of their living space... I personally like the idea, but since I have a basement with 10ft ceilings, no water danger and my wife would have a fi about having a boiler in the kitchen mine are below deck...



If you are looking to do something different, you can use a plate exchanger with a small heatflo st30 {installs in under 36"s, I like them better than using electric water tanks for storage, they work well}, install it in your zone return with a 3 way valve and an aquastat, use a ss bronze circ on the other side... you will use all your heated water energy and it will still work in the summer without running the heat....

ced48

Yes, Westerly-Sorry for the Delay-

I did buy the little Lochinvar boiler. I hope you feel it was a good choice. I had the chance to buy it at a good price, it seems to be as small as they make them, and I like the HX design a lot more than those with a water tube design.



HEAT LOSS -The living level comes out to somewhere around 28,000, but because the house is close to the water, wind and air infiltration would most likely increase this somewhat. Also , I have to put some heat into the walkout basement, which was kept at a constant 55 degrees, plus, by the old boiler, and the btu's it gave off.



HEAT EMITTERS- There is about 65 feet of Slant Fin baseboard heat, placed in a 2 circuit, simple loop system. The 2 circuits are just about equal, and the house heats evenly. Boiler is set now with a high limit of 180 degrees. Water is being moved by a Taco 007-



Any and all ideas, thoughts will be taken with the greatest thanks-

heatpro02920

If you want to keep

it all up stairs in one small area I would go with a small rinnai tankless and shut that loch boiler down for the sumer months... If that is not an option, I would say with at least a 30ga indirect {smart tank would be a good choice}.. If that doesn't fit, get the largest plate exchanger your boiler will maintain and run directly off one side with a decent mixing valve and a s/s 009{ran by the aquastat} with a recirc loop, for the boiler side run it like a loop of baseboard, its own circulator and relay but instead of a thermostat calling in the control you put an aquastat in the dhw line.



I have done this a bunch of times, it works better with a recriculation loop on your DHW {I use 3/8 or 1/2" pex, very easy to run}{plus you get the benefit of having hot water at your faucet instantly}. I would run a bumble bee on the boiler side and for your zones... Them plate exchangers will amaze you with their output... Problem on a mod con is you really only want that pump to run when you are taking hot water out of it, this will keep low return temps, so you just have to be smart about sensor placement...