Sandy still haunts my home!

Durachka

Hello all! I'm new to this forum and would like

to introduce myself. I am a Hurricane Sandy survivor and rebuilding my

home everyday!











The first two levels of my home were flooded. At first, I had my boiler

fixed and my water heater replaced. The heating (single pipe system)

was working perfectly fine in all rooms of the house (I have radiators

in each room). Later, many plumbers told me I needed to replace my

boiler being it was under salt water and will give problems in the

future. So, now I have a brand new boiler. The problem, is that the

rooms on the very top floor have no heat. The radiators get warm but never get really hot.  The people who replaced the

boiler couldn't understand why the heat upstairs stopped working and

took no responsibility for it. I've had plumbers come in and bleed them

out, adjust the pressure, put water in the system and nothing works.

The last plumber that came in has recommended that the pressure pump be

replaced with a stronger one, but could not guarantee that would fix the

problem.











Any ideas on what could be the problem?

nicholas bonham-carter

The fury of sandy

The storm seems to have unleashed a hoard of untrained boilermen onto the other problems wrought by that storm.

In order to solve these problems, you need to find a real steam expert.

I suspect your boiler may not have been piped according to the mfg's instructions, and if so will never work properly. Send us some pictures of the boiler and it's piping, and we can begin to help you solve the problems.

Make sure you start a new thread in the steam section for best results.--NBC

Durachka

Sandy hates me.

Thank you for the reply!



Here are some photos:

Steamhead

It's a single-pipe hot-water system

not steam. Those look like Taco venturi tees, which would make it a Taco-One rather than a Monoflo.



Somehow the water isn't moving- bad circulator maybe? Or the supply and return might be reversed?



And I've never heard of a Green Mountain boiler, but that one looks like it might be a Laars.

heatpro02920

What is the pressure

read the gauge, how high is your top floor? Looks to me from that gauge its low.... You need water pressure to get the water up to the top floor....



When I install a new boiler I go to the ceiling minimum with replacement parts, looks like they just snuck in a new boiler, used old purge tees and valves, which would have been much easier to change at the time of the swap out... But its not as bad as others I have seen... Seems like sandy had a lot of guys in a hurry...

Dave H_2

Pumping away?

Is the system Pumping Away?

Pressure maybe a little low.

Air Separator may help (if its an air problem)

Durachka

pressure gauge

Here's where the pressure gauge is at.



The 2nd to last plumber told me the pressure needs to be between 20-30 after the radiators are bled and water is "put into the system.'  He told me every time I bleed out a radiator, I need to go and release this valve to put water in until the meter is between 20-30.



Is there a chance the pressure should be higher? The last time I bled out one of the radiators, the water was pumping out strong and was hot.  But still no heat.



And yes, that last picture in the previous post was of venturi tees.

knotgrumpy

Which pump

Serves the top floor?

Durachka

other pump?

I'm not sure I understand.  Isn't there only one pump?  The house is split level. From top to bottom:







Attic



Bedroom floor



Living room/kitchen



Family room/garage



Basement



I have two thermostats, one that serves the bottom two levels and another that serves the upper levels.

tim smith

Re: flow problems etc

what would really help is if you have pics of the old boiler also. We can then compare what it use to look like and what it looks like now.  Do you know if the black pump on side of boiler at chest high was original or is it new?  I feel the problem is one of 2 things. Pump is now pumping wrong direction for one pipe system or  pump is too small and they did change it.  See if you have pictures of the bad boiler installed. I think this will tell us all.  May the heat be with you. Tim

Durachka

Unfortunately

I don't have ANY pictures of the old boiler.  If I knew I'd be encountering this problem, I would have taken a ton.



The pump is new.  =(

russiand

Hmm

They certainly stuck those pumps on the return. Does the 3 speed pump serve the poorly heating zone or does the black one? Looks like they put a new 3 speed taco and recycled the old 007. It's gotta be either the reversal of the supply/return in the piping, a bad pump, or an air pocket that they failed to dislodge.

russiand

gate valves aboves circs open all the way?

I know it sounds silly, but that has happened to me. Are they open all the way?

tim smith

Re: pump size or flow direction

My best guess is that flow is reversed but also I think the black pump is serving the main system and the back green pump serves a basement zone maybe? It is a 3/4 line that heads behind boiler off green pump so I think that may be basement. The black pump I think would be to small for monoflow main house system which would explain lack of flow on top floor. Pressure on system looks ok.  I think it probably should be closer to a up26-64 or 26-99 Grundfos pump for monoflow. Just a guess depending on the size of the system which we don't know?

Durachka

pump it up

It looks like the black pump goes up into the ceiling, so

I'm guessing it serves upstairs. If there is a reversal in the piping or an air

pocket, why haven't any of the plumbers suggested that?   I think the gate valves are open all the way

because if closed, the heating downstairs would have stopped too. 









tim smith: How would I find out what the size of the system

is?  The last plumber suggested a bigger

pump, but said he couldn't' guarantee that would fix the problem.

RobG

Pump oriantation

On the back of the pumps (cast into the body) there is an arrow indicating flow direction. Which way are the arrows pointing, up or down?

Rob

russiand

You could try swapping the pumps

That 007 should be enough to serve upstairs. Most likely you had 2 007s to begin with. But given that you have a 3 speed (running on LOW currently) sitting right there, you could swap it in place of the black 007 and run on HI just to see if it fixes things. Again, I think this is reaching a little since typically a single 007 would be able to handle both upstairs and down, no prob.

Durachka

can't find the flow direction

I don't see anything that indicates a flow direction.  This is what the back of the pump looks like.  Am I looking in the wrong place?

Durachka

...

=(

russiand

There are arrows there both pointing down

So circs themselves are oriented correctly, although not ideally since they are on the return vs the preffered pumping away on the supply location. The black pump and I am assuming that it's a Taco 007 is a style of pump that is usually included with a packaged boiler. I am assuming they re-used that one from your original boiler. The other pump that is green is a 3 speed one. If it is indeed a pump issue, you could install the green one in place of the black one and test it on HI.

John Mills_5

flow

Are there check valves somewhere that keep the pump from pushing water backwards through the other pump when off? 

russiand

Hmm

The 3 speed one is an IFC the black one we don't know

Durachka

replace

would it just be better if I installed another green one to replace the black one?

Durachka

check valves

what do check valves look like?  can you link me to a picture because I've no idea if it there or not

heatpro02920

get the rite pump

I would figure out what you need for a pump and buy that one, measure the pipe, emmitters, and figure it out... I would start there....

Durachka

um

Yes, that's why I'm here...to figure out what I need to do.

tim smith

ReL pump size and flow direction

I think it would help if you could get as many angles of pics of the boiler piping as possible. I would like to see what direction the airow is on that taco air scoop near back wall that has small brass air vent on it. The Green block looking thing back behind main piping at shoulder height. Get several angles.  Also, maybe someone will chime in on the direction on those taco 1 pipe venturi tees, maybe we can back track to boiler to verify flow direction. If flow direction is correct, I think a ups26-99fc Grundfos might be a good choice to replace black pump, try different speeds but again, depends on how much radiation is connected to that zone?  Snap close up of the fitting at ceiling below radiator in the one pic at top of post, it is that black tee fitting on left side of pipe going up to radiator.  Good luck, T

knotgrumpy

Some more pictures

You take some good pictures.  How about a few more.  That looks like a B&G Flowtrol on the ceiling.  I've put a few arrrows on things I'd like to see in this picture.



It looks like there is no check valve keeping the smaller circuit isolated from the larger.  If I think like water, I'd probably take the low road rather than pump against gravity.

heatpro02920

I'm going to guess

the pumps are pumping the correct way, or the same direction as they were on the old boiler... Since they are mounted low, and the contractor who did the job obviously just did a fast pull and push installation... And I would say the old system had the circs on the return like most older systems.. So that I don't thin is the problem....



And as already stated a 007 should be enough to pump this system unless there is something I am not seeing...



We need to know what else the contractor changed?



Were the original pumps 00's? or did they look different? Like big electric motors with an exposed coupling?



If you are up to it I will tell you exactly what I would do on your service call...



First check the boilers temp and pressure {should be 180 high limit and around 20psi under 30 obviously



then I would call in the second floor thermostat and make sure the circulator was moving the water, in the rite direction {hence when the circ kicks in {you can normally hear or feel it} the pipe coming out of the boilers top should get hot and the one going in the bottom should get cold warm then hot {depending where you are in the cycle}.



After that happened I would go and check the temps in the radiators to see if they are getting warmer... also keeping an eye on the zone not calling, to make sure the heat wasnt going to another zone.



If they are not, I am thinking AIR first, so I will bleed the entire system then the radiators individually....



If the problem persisted I would think circulation, I would do a quick measurement of pipe and rads to see what pump you needed, if you were close, I would quickly change the pumps cartridge to see if that helped...



If that still did not get me in the rite direction, I would get my thermal imager and see where the heat was going, {easy if the pipes are exposed but hard if they are not}, if the rads that are not heating up are getting passed by I would think there is a problem with the v-tees, that is if the 180* water was leaving the boiler and traveling to the radiator but not going into it and going all the way through the system and returning to the boiler at say 175* and the rads are only seeing a couple degrees on their second pipe...



So if the boilers pressures and temps are good, the heat is going in the rite direction with no check valves and or closed valves and the correct sized pump {as in leaving 180 and returning 170+ with the rads

feed never going over 150 or so}...





My next action would be a system flushing, back washing, and good conditioning/cleaning, at that time I would install a return t/p gauge {so i can watch the temps and pressures on the return and supply}.



If your problem still persisted I would want to install a globe valve on the single pipe loop in between the rads feed and return so I could force the water through them with a simple adjustment.. At that time I would try to talk you into buying some delta tee circulators {they work awesome with old radiator systems, but would first want to figure out your problem since it could make it worse} and letting me move the circs to the return..



I am confident it would be fixed after all that is done, lol... But I hate to say it wouldn't be cheap....



I would love to see someone with a t-imager go over there, see where the heat is going, I had a similar problem with a customer that had a new boiler installed, they switched from oil to gas and their radiators were sucking the heat out too fast, the boiler would go rite to 180 but after the first radiator the water was already down to 130*, I ended up putting a faster' pump in and moving the water faster, this helped but the boiler couldnt keep up, so luckily it was a a first floor loop with the piping basement exposed, so I ended up installing a bunch of globe valves and spending the time there tuning the system to get it rite, also ended up splitting the zones up a little bit... It was just a case of the new boilers mass was too low for the old systems needs, they had some re-purposed commercial radiators that I never seen before, and boy could they suck the heat out of water...

Durachka

Helpful

If only I had someone to give these suggestions to. Is anyone here from the northeast area that would like a job in NY ?

tim smith

RE: New York boiler guy

Call Matt Sweeney, he is just across the way in Floral Park.  Looks like he is now working at Olympic Plumbing and Heating in New York. Great guy. Give him a try.   Also good option is John Cataeno at Gateway plumbing and heating. Not sure if I spelled last name right but  ph # (212) 980-0909      

Durachka

commercial only?

tim smith, thank you!



do you have a number for Matt Sweeney?  It looks like he only does commercial plumbing, but I'd like to give him a call on his personal phone and see if he'd like the job.

knotgrumpy

Did you get a resolution

To your problem?

Durachka

Tired.

Nope.



 I found a "boiler expert" who took a look around and told me there shouldn't be any issues with the boiler.  He told me he needs to take down the walls to reveal the piping below the rooms that aren't receiving heat.  I agreed and he's on vacation now.  He said there's a single switch that needs to be on and that'll make it work, but cannot find it unless the walls come down.



This is getting really frustrating and I'm surprised at the lack of knowledge on such an issue from the "experts" that have been coming to my home.

russiand

Wow

I wouldn't let that person back into your house if I were you. I think you are better off letting the folks on this site guide you through troubleshooting your issues. Luckily we are getting into the warm days so you'll have plenty of time to figure this out before the next season. I would be interested in hearing what sort of "switches" in walls he was referring to..

heatpro02920

What?

a magic switch in the wall, lol I have no idea what he is talking about, maybe a hidden stairway switch, but the unit has power correct? and I would just run a new service line before taking down walls???? Keep on looking for a good tech, they are out there...

Durachka

Winter

I do NOT want to wait until winter to worry about this problem.  I want to have the heat working now so I don't worry about being cold when the time comes.



I live in NYC and cannot find a single good plumber or boiler expert.  Everyone on this forum has been SO helpful except I don't understand how to do ANYTHING because this isn't my field!



I'm starting to think the only solution I have is to move out.

russiand

Hmm

I understand your frustration, didn't folks suggest some names and phone numbers of compentent heating contractors in NY? There is no doubt that if it worked before it can be made to work again, and most likely the issue is something simple that does not require breaking down of walls, etc.  There is only a handful of things this can be and I am sure it will be figured out.

tim smith

Re: your boiler problem

I think one of our group here on the wall should make a trip up there. If I were closer than I am here in Seattle I would do it.  Maybe this is a good story for Dan to do on the trials of consumers in our heating world.  I find the lack of use of the golden rule to be such a travesty sometimes.  Dan??? any ideas. Or someone else from the wall able to go see this lady?  I think documenting a job like this would be quiite interesting for people to follow and to see what good minds and hearts do.   Maybe there is more to this story, but I see often enough the lack of good practices that fall short of  providing an adequate heating system.

Charlie from wmass

there are several contactors

in the find a contractor section who can address this. One does not go into NYC with out the proper licensing.

tim smith

Re: New york and proper licensing

Charlie, I was not saying that someone should go in and do the work but go in and assist with the diagnosis and remedy options. Then at least maybe she can get this fixed. I do feel for her that she can't seem to get this taken care of.