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Dear Homeowner1

CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
I would suggest you go back to 2010-2011 and get yourself educated as to what Navien was offering in that time period. Back then the non ASME Verison of the CH Series was being installed and passed on as a combination boiler which at that time did not have a AFUE rating nor was it subject to any utility rebates as a boiler. It also did not have an AHRI number. Nor does it have one now as far as a boiler is concerned.

<a href="http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/rblr/defaultSearch.aspx">http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/rblr/defaultSearch.aspx</a>

If you want to keep going back to posts 2-3yrs old and continue to say myself and others are providing bad information I suggest you get your facts straight. It wasn't until Aug-Sept of 2012 that Navien stopped offering the NON ASME version of it's CH Series.

You have been running around on every post concerning Navien some 3 years old in some type of intent to discredit and wondering why?
"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."


  • HomeOwner1
    HomeOwner1 Member Posts: 134
    Helping out others when researching

    Not meant to discredit, but help others avoid confusion. Your posts were very misleading when researching our options on a simple google search. These come up at the top of the results list.

    Other contractors were pulling up your posts when quoting the unit for our family as proof as to why this was not a workable solution. This was a great source of frustration.

    Sorry your feelings are hurt, but hopefully this avoids the hoops we had to jump through.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Your Not Helping Anyone

    Your visiting posts 2 and 3 years old and discrediting when during those time periods what we stated were factual. You have never mentioned in any of your posts that beginning in Aug-Sept 2012 Navien went away from the non rated version of the CH Series to the ASME rated version.

    If anyone is causing confusion it is you. I don't think you will find a post or thread from me or the others that states that the ASME version is not a rated boiler. If anything you are saying the non version is and that is just factually not true.

    If someone was pulling old posts that were factually true at their time I guess they should educate themselves on the current product offering from Navien. To state myself or others are wrong on your part in not truthful when we we talking about the non ASME version of the CH Series.

    I would suggest in future posts you acknowledge the ASME version from the NON ASME version.
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • HDE
    HDE Member Posts: 225
    Homeowner sure likes his Navien!

    Up until April 2012, the combi boiler classification at DOE was vague. You could certify the combi unit and sell it as a heater in the tankless category. Well that ruling changed things a bit because if you heat the closed system heating water directly, it must be certified as a boiler. Now you could reverse the operation and heat the domestic directly and heat the closed heating side indirectly, as some combi boilers do, but it wont be a "boiler". And it would be disqualified from the boiler classifications and then not be able to participate in the larger boiler tax credits and rebates from Energy Star and the Utilities.

    As it has come light lately, the boiler testing procedures for condensing boilers is just a bit flawed. While this is being addressed, the combi boiler classification is still on hold and who knows when work on this will be done. The CA-AFUE rating was developed (Combined Appliance) but its seems to have fizzled out in its infancy. So for the time being, all boilers must be rated on AFUE, which doesn't give the combi boilers in many cases a good efficiency fair shake method of testing. You would think it would have become a priority, as the combi boiler market grew to 15% or so of the overall residential boiler sales last year.

    I dont believe there is/was a product difference in the ASME/None ASME Navien combi boiler. It just had to have some waterway material differences and the all-mighty ASME inspector blessing of the heat exchanger before it was assembled, and the required relief valve thrown into the box. This of course adds to the price of the unit that we all must absorb.
  • HomeOwner1
    HomeOwner1 Member Posts: 134
    Let's quote you from last week then.....

    "I'd love to see the piping on this unit. I'm one of those that would never install or recommend a product that isn't ASME or "H" stamped as a boiler which sounds like what you have installed. Remember you only get what you pay for."

    Just last week you are again claiming this is not a boiler. The post is from March 18, 2013 at 5:39PM.

    Facts are facts. Get over it man! Not a big deal, we all have these moments.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    Yes You Are Correct

    I said it, "Sounds like" referring to the NON ASME VERSION! WHICH IS NOT A BOILER!!!
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • HomeOwner1
    HomeOwner1 Member Posts: 134

    Yes, our family was happy to get something like this versus a 80% cast iron boiler with separate water heater for the same budget.

    It was tough getting past the instant dismissal from most folks when bringing up the combi option. Your post sheds some light on that. We put a lot of effort up-front to make sure this thing would work for us, hence we have some strong feelings here.

    It was tough when the homeowners knew more about the combi systems than the people quoting them. Some people that came out thought that the Challenger would work fine since the BTU output matched our heating needs but did not factor in the hot water needs for us. Many of these guys were probably going back to the office and doing web searches to get informed. We did our homework and eventually found people who knew their stuff.

    Funny thing is, many of the guys we eventually found who had experience were from Europe. They apparently have been using combi systems for quite a while now over there. Is the US a little behind them in HVAC technology?
  • HDE
    HDE Member Posts: 225

    The Navien CH is an interesting unit, and it shows as it reported to be the #2 wall-hung condensing boiler sold last year in numbers, and its a combi!

    You are right there is allot of misunderstanding and misinformation on that unit.

    One would be its flow rate versus BTU output. Many contractors are under the belief that it is limited to 50,000 BTU's because of its heat exchanger/pump capability. While its pump may be only 5 GPM, many confuse this with its BTU potential. Direct connected to a heat emitter system, designed at 20 DT, they are right.

    However, installed as a secondary loop/system injecting heat into the primary loop/heating system, it goes far beyond the 50,000 BTU's. In fact Ive seen it installed properly handle 125,000 BTU's plus. Allot of contractors are still stuck on the primary/secondary systems that have a loop in and out of the boiler with close spaced secondary tees. This works well in some larger systems but not boilers such as the Navien, Viessmann, and a few others. This is only one of a few types of P/S system designs.

    The Navien CH, will hit the BTU firing requirement needed to hit about 6 degrees of control set point before modulating down to minimum fire, This operation can not be compared to a heating system that is on/off on a 20 degree controller.
  • HomeOwner1
    HomeOwner1 Member Posts: 134
    Interesting Stuff

    In my case, I have roughly 250 feet of emitters, about half being cast iron baseboards and the rest standard fin copper at 3/4". Now, the piping getting everywhere probably makes that number closer to 1000 feet.

    During real-world performance, my biggest hit with incoming 40 degree water is about a 10 minute heat-up time for my 120 feet of cast iron emitters. Once those loops start returning hot, then the system is cooking. This thing is pretty impressive with its heating capacity and how easily it took the house to temperature from a large degree variance on its initial start-up.

    The flow rate is advertised to be 5GPM at a 70 delta T for hot water at 120 degrees. My real-world experience is that the unit can run three showers with no issues on a design day in New Jersey though. This is probably due to it being set for 130 degrees and having some cold mixed in, since real life application does not have the knob set to full hot. Have not yet attempted more yet though.

    In my research, we could not find any other combi units that meet these performance specifications. Sure with an indirect, but not all in one unit like this one, especially for the price.
  • CMadatMe
    CMadatMe Member Posts: 3,086
    DHW and Heating

    Are two different things. First,if I hadn't told you to get that bucket out and measure gpm you'd be here complaining because you were being led down the path of wrong. Second, the heating side has nothing to do with the in coming water temp. The heating side is a closed loop system.

    5gpm x 70 x 500 = 175,000 btu/ hr and any unit that can deliver the 175 will do the same thing for domestic hot water. Like I told you originally as long as the unit is sized correctly it will deliver the need. The Navien isn't a magic wand because I can name a lot of combi units that if sized and installed properly will provide the same. The big question is longevity and life of the unit.

    As far as HDE's statement concerning position in the market place. Let's clarify the US because Navien is a pea in a pod compared to other combi's in the world market. They have done a great job here in the US from a marketing and price point stand point. They understand the US market. Cheap and get me by..
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469

    The issue I see with the combi-boilers is that folks seem to be over sizing the boiler output in favor of DHW. You leave a lot of efficiency on the table when you do that. Homeowner1's is only 25% over-sized, but I've seen that same combi used for a 40000 btu heat loss, and that's 5X's the boiler needed. You mentioned the European market, and they have many more combi's to choose from than we do. There is also a very different mentality there. They don't expect to run 3 showers, the washing machine and the dishwasher at the same time.
  • heatpro02920
    heatpro02920 Member Posts: 991

    I am starting to think you bought more than just a combi unit from Navian, are you sure you didn't buy some shares too? LOL....

    Listen {or read, rather} I am happy you are happy with your unit, BUT, Keep this in mind, I {as are a lot of others here} am a professional in the HVAC/r field, and where you think you are "helping others", I have to professionally disagree... Where you think you got a good deal, I think you would have been much better served with a properly sized 86% cast iron boiler with a separate water heater.... It would have definitely lasted MUCH longer and if installed correctly with an odr and delta t circs, would have saved you fuel all year long!!! Not to mention most likely had a lower initial investment...

    I already stated where I stand on the brand so I don't need to repeat myself, and I have seen more than one, so hopefully readers will save themselves some grief and choose a different route..
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited March 2013
    I completely

    I completely agree. But that's not worth much.

    A little knowledge can go a long, wrong way.

    Another argument that can never be resolved.
  • HomeOwner1
    HomeOwner1 Member Posts: 134
    Thank You

    Yes, I must thank you for your advice from all of you on this forum. Chris, your gpm logic helped to get through things.

    We appreciated the assistance. It was through the forum that we eventually found our contractor that did the installation within our budget.

    Thank You
This discussion has been closed.