We Put the Fish

CMadatMe

Interesting column our friend Dan has wrote. The word "High Efficiency", in

my opinion comes from the marketing side to make us and the consumer feel

all good, cozy and value to the money they spent.



I'm from the old school, way before we had these 90 plus pieces of equipment.

Back then we were taught to sell "System Efficiency". Does it really matter how

efficient you can make energy? What good is making the energy efficient if you

cannot deliver that efficiently made energy?



There are some great guys here who more then likely can take a traditional gas

boiler, install it with some great newer ECM pumps, zone valves and the correct

piping and make that baby hum better then a mocking bird.



To me high efficiency is just a marketing term while giving a complete

system efficiency defines real savings.

SWEI

got a link

to that column?



Strongly agree on the systems approach.  BTUs per square foot per degree-day is a wonderful metric, and I'd really love to see rebate programs based on it.

bob_46

Metric

Swei , I think $$ per square foot per degree day over ten years including maintenance is

a more beautiful metric .



http://www.heatinghelp.com/article/183/Plumbing-Mechanical-articles/2610/We-Put-the-Fish-in-Efficiency-February-2013

SWEI

lifecycle cost

is indeed the real bottom line, but it's tougher to quantify.  Making comparisons gets even harder with differing fuels and huge location-based differences in pricing on each type of fuel.  Our NG here costs less than half what it does in NY, and my friends who live close to the Bonneville dam pay about a third what we do for electricity.



I'm finishing up a hotel project which is on track to have total energy costs 75% lower than industry averages.  Stay tuned.



Great column, BTW.

Gordy

Good article

This is the type of reading that the consumer public needs to read, and understand.



There are so many ways that the whole building can effect total system efficiency. The average,consumer does no even realize.



You can give a consumer higher efficiency just buy installing the same efficiency boiler that is sized correctly. Maybe the old one was thumbed in. Or maybe it is now to big because of envelope upgrades.



A lot has to do with a thorough contractor. Presenting the possibilities to the potential client.



Most everyone that hangs here is in that small percentage of contractors. Very small compared to the norm outside this forum it is not as large as you believe that understands total systems performance.



Just like the consumers who are more interested in what ROI for anything is going to do for me not my carbon footprint. Because in the end the efficiency gained that decreases their carbon footprint is effecting their ROI through less energy used which effects future price trends of energy.





BTU per degree day is an excellent tool,to use. IF enough information is available to perform the calculations. How many contractors would do this if they had the utility bills, and degree day info. Hard enough to find one that will do a,competent heat loss calc.





It's kind of like the thread has the elegance of simplicity been lost. I think technology is great in the right measure for a given system. Sometimes though I think technology gives the consumer a false sense of efficiency gained. In that I mean they are inclined to believe if they have all the top of the line equipment they must have a top of the line system that is going to save them money efficiency wise.





Anyway could not agree,with you more Chris.

Gordy

Here is a shocker

I was watching the home channel last night was a log home segment. One was 12000 sf.



The heating bill was 8000 a month! Now they did not say what type of heat let alone what energy was used.



If you divide that out to 6 2000 square foot homes that's 1333.33 a month. My house which is 2800sf with basement. Cost 650.00 for the heating season to heat. With 50s construction.



Now you would think that the owner, builder, at the very least the hvac company would have sold, or wanted some efficiency.



It's stuff like that which blows my mind. It takes 6 average homes to shave away at their carbon foot print to make up for one big one. Their should be an energy hog tax.

CMadatMe

Well Guys

Off to ISH Germany today. Have a great week.

heatpro02920

Have a good trip...

I have owned my business for a while, and I have seen this entire "High Efficiency" wave from the beginning when it was just a splash...

Here is how I think of it....

If the systems last forever {or the life of the building at least}, than high efficiency would make sense for everyone. BUT it does not, so someone with a 30K BTU heat loss {which due to good building techs and insulation advancements is very common now} the initial cost and shorter lifespan of a MOD/CON will never be recovered. Now if you have a 12000 sw ft house with a 360K BTU heat loss, than you would be crazy not to consider a high eff. system... I have installed geothermal systems with solar electricity that will pay for themselves in less than 10 years, there fore making the home owner a profit for the remaining 20 years of its lifespan, that seems to be a no brainer to me... Where that system in a house with a 30K BTU heatloss would have to last 50+ years to pay for itself and since it will only last around 30, that means you lost money....



I think of it like a hybrid car, if you put 5000 miles a year on your car and keep it for 5 years don't spend the extra money on a hybrid because you will never get it back, where if you drive 25K a year it will make a lot more sense....



Now just because you have a small heat load doesnt mean you can not get a high efficiency system, I like the Weil McLain cgi boilers sized rite to the heat loss, with an ODR aquastat and delta tee circs, direct vented and installed properly, they will save the customer money and give you 3 decades of trouble free service... Coupled with a condensing tankless what heater you can really benefit from the upgrade from a std chimney vented oversized gas boiler...



I am a firm believer of getting the most out of what you got, so I don't agree with replacing functioning equipment with something of higher eff. for the sake of saving money. If you have a boiler with 10 years of life left that is firing at 83% eff. it will be really hard to save the money you waste by throwing her away before her time... Get the life out of it, when it is leaking, unsafe, no longer meets your needs, or needs an expensive repair that its remaining life doesn't warrant then it is time to change it, but not before.... If you change it before now you have to factor in the wasted life of that unit, plus in 8 years a better boiler will be available that will make the one you buy now obsolete....



I do get them customers that want to "shrink" their "carbon foot print" and have a 5 year old oil fired boiler and want to swap it to a mod con with a digital control and all the fancy wall hung boxes {not thinking about tossing out a unit before its time {I don't know the numbers but Im sure that adds to your footprint} BUT I take their money with a smile, and I save the boilers, and use them for customers that can not afford to buy a new one...



But my rant is over, just some of my thoughts on efficiency, although not popular, you can not argue with the math. Money is money.... I huge portion of my business is high efficiency equipment....

SWEI

area under the curve

directly affects the ROI.  If there are not enough BTUs being lost, or enough degree-days in which to lose them, the payback will simply not make sense.



10 years of life left on an 83% CI boiler would not justify a replacement here on NG, but for a customer on LPG it might well pencil out.



A new, highly efficient, properly oriented passive solar design here requires so little added heat in a typical season that it's hard to justify almost any piece of equipment.  Some get by with a wood stove, some with a small direct vent heater.  We setup a 6 kW Thermolec on one last fall that's added only $10-15 per month to the electric bill this winter.