Sidewall Venting:

icesailor

Saw this while going to a job today.

Simply undescribable.

Those windows into the cellar living space are operable.

Steamhead

Here we go again.......

you can't fix stupid!

Steve Whitbeck

clearence

if it is at least 12 inches away from the windows and it looks like it is - it is legal.

doesn't mean that I like it but if it is legal and the only place to vent it.

I would have snorkeled the exhaust up away from the lower windows.

icesailor

Legality:

It is NOT legal. It is not even 12" above grade. And Massachusetts and all the other jurisdictions all say to follow the manufacturers venting instructions as far as snow lines. So if it won't meet basic level above grade. Then to add the snow level, it isn't even close.

Those twp windows provide ventilation for the cellar space. They are operable. If the windows are open, will the exhaust go into the building through the windows?

They were sanding floors. The building probably doesn't have a final inspection.

Maybe I am wrong but I was told and have followed this rule, take a 4' string and put one end on/in a vent. There should be no window or building opening in the 4' arc.

It's what makes sidewall venting so complicated. If you snorkel it up, the upper windows interfere.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Vent Termination

But they are 12" above grade - the lower grade.  That is the grade level where the vent terminates, no?



And as far as the distance from a window, door or other opening, you have to look at the manufacturer's instrucrtions; sometimes a 4' string, sometimes a 12" string.



We don't get snow here.  Maybe I would think differently if I saw how snow impacts these kinds of installations.

Eric_32

I don't understand

Why it wasn't drilled thru the siding above the sill. Floor joist are sitting on top of the sill which is sitting on top of the foundation. There should be no reason that vent couldn't have been run between the joists.

If the joist were running the opposite way then you either have to drill thru one or find another location to vent.

If that house gets a good snow, a drift can fill that whole recess right up and cover the vent. If I was an inspector I would not pass it.

heatpro02920

I have seen worse...

But that is pretty bad and will NOT pass code here.... I went to a rinnai service call that I did not install, and although it had nothing to do with the service call the vent was touching the window about 2 inches above grade... I have also seen units just vented into the attic no termination at all, more often that you would think...

icesailor

Snow:

Mass. code references show a 17" snowfall for this location. You add that to the 12" ABOVE the grade. Where is the grade? The top of the 6"X6" timber? Outside the timber? or the hole in the ground where the windows and exhaust are located? If you measure 29" from the hole in the ground, is the vent above that?

If the windows are open in the summer, and the appliance is running and venting, is there no possibility of CO and exhaust being drawn into the living space?

Like I said, the final gas inspection comes just before the final building inspection. I don't think it has been gas inspected. And I don't think it was vented by a gas pipe installer who is responsible for the venting. More likely by a HVAC installer who hasn't been to any CEU classes where this was covered.

Someone may be surprised. This house is listed for sale because it is a spec. house. Listed at well over a million dollars.

Steve Whitbeck

vent

It would be legal here.

they probably didn't want a penetration of the cedar shake siding.

I would have snorkeled both pipes up 12 inches above average snow line.

I don't use concentric vent terminations. ( unless going vertical through a roof and then I extend the center vent up another 12 inches)

Steamhead

Yup

"Those twp windows provide ventilation for the cellar space. They are

operable. If the windows are open, will the exhaust go into the building

through the windows?"



Count on it. With the chimney effect we find in many buildings, the exhaust will get pulled right in. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

icesailor

Mud Sills:

There is an incredible rage around the architects and designers to not put the floor framing on top of the foundation but to build a "pocket" to hold the mud sill and floor framing, so that the top of the deck is closer to the ground. This is helpful in this jurisdiction because they have a local Hysterical District Commission that has set height restrictions so if you have a wide house, you might need to gain 12" for a roof. AND, you don't need a step to get into the house. They grade up to a few inches of the shingles. Then, the landscapers cover the bottom course of shingles with mulch so the whole thing rots or the termites move in

If you think that is bad, try running any pipes down an outside wall.

Notice the concrete space above the windows, Those windows are installed at the bottom of the mud sill. Those vent pipes are run at the bottom of the floor joists.

Most of the new, architect/designer houses in this jurisdiction are designed with no plumbing or heating in mind. No place to run water and waste and vent pipes. And the HVAC guys seem to get priority

So, visualize where the bottom of the floor is. That's why the holes are where they are. At grade. The first time you see one you will say ****?????.

I'll see if I can find a cut of one.

But like I said, there is no provisions made for venting equipment. You can't go between or through the rim joist because you have to use two ells to get there adding to the total length of the vent length. The designers or contractors don't give a RA. You have to hire someone to core the foundation. That's not cheap. The question is, did they get prior approval from the AHJ, or if not, will they approve it

icesailor

Pocket Sill Framing:

I can find no examples of this framing with a Google Search.

Imagine a 10" concrete wall with the top 12" +/- cut out on the inside with a 4" top left there on the outside but open to the inside. With a block foundation, the last top course is a 4" solid block set to the outside. The sill plate goes on the last full block and the box sill/floor framing sets on the sill inside. The top of the box sill is even with the foundation with the sub floor plywood running over the top 4" block. The bottom of a double sole plate is laid on top of the sub-floor plywood. You have now dropped the entire box sill floor assembly. It can be mostly be below grade and protected by the concrete foundation. If using I-Joists, you use the appropriate glue-lam end joist and metal strap the I-Joist to the Glue Lam.

The form guys have a special form box they put in the concrete form to make the pocket.

A few years ago, I replaced a Heatmaker II that was vented with Plexvent and falling apart with a Vitodens 100. The Plexvent was cut into the wall so they could vent over the pocket mud sill. When I vented the new boiler, the outlets were below the rim joists but 8" below the top of the sill. If I tried to go through the shingles, the vent pipe would have come through in the living space. If I drilled through the top block, I would have hit the rim joist.

If you haven't run into one of these foundations, you have missed an important part of the stress in your life.  

RobG

Reverse Brick Ledge?

Never seen it done. Is it like a putting a brick edge on the inside of the house? What is the point, just to not have a step up into the house?



Rob

icesailor

Brick edge:

Its the same as a "Brick Edge" for a brick veneer, only opposite. Where the brick goes on the outside, the floor frame box goes on the inside. With a "Brick Edge, you usually make a 12" wall and notch out 4" deep by 8" high notch out of it. The brick notch usually goes below grade so it looks like a brick house.

Its only so you can gain a foot in elevation to the top if the roof from grade. And you eliminate a step on a porch. You can drop a porch at 8" below the doorway and not need a step off a deck or porch.

Do the math. There's a local height restriction for new buildings or additions of 30' above FINISHED grade or average grade. You can't pile dirt up 2' around the house and make it legal. If you figure 10' per floor, and it is a two story house, and it is wide, and they require a 9" to 12" pitch on the roof, it gets hard to keep it legal. And some areas have a 25' height restriction.

Next time I see one being built, I'll take some pictures. I need to keep you guys up on the cutting edge of modern construction improvements.

heatpro02920

WOW, thanks

I never heard of that Ice, I am interested.... you have a wealth of relevant knowledge my friend, thanks...

icesailor

2"X6" walls:

You should try drilling down for a 2" Sch 40 PVC kitchen waste drain and vent. Drill a 2" hole into a 2"x6" sole plate with a hole saw and if you aren't very careful, it hones the teeth off a hole saw in an instant. Then, you need to chisel out the back of the hole in the concrete to get a 2" 45 degree ell in the hole to get into the clear.

The required hacking and wood butchering can give the rodents nice access to the building. Once they find their way through the fiberglass duct-board that they chew through like little kids eating ice cream bars.

It can get pretty disgusting.

The other day, I was having a a problem with a First air handler, connected to a Taco ZVC 404 that was going nuts. The lights were going on and off at will and the valves were opening by themselves without turning the red lights on. The appointed electrician was having a problem understanding that it wasn't supposed to do that. That if a T87M thermostat is set for 70 degrees, but it won't click on until 75, and after it clicked, it started the fan on the First air handler, and ALL the lights on the Taco ZV came on. then a few minutes, all the lights went out, and if you turned it to 90+ degrees before the lights came on, there was some kind of a problem with something. And by the way, the owner mentioned something about a lightning strike that wrecked a lot of appliances. I took off the cover on the First. I noticed a problem right away. I looked at a shelf above and behind the blower wheel. I saw about two cups of big dead insects. "There. There's one of the problems. The engineers died. You might need some new ones".

I left him in his misery. If I disconnected the First AH's, the ZVC and Taco zone valves worked fine. When I connected the First, they went nuts. I was informed later that it was "normal". Until I reminded them again that the house was hit by lightning and may have a bad neutral.

Whats that thing about soaring, the Eagles and Turkeys? I forget.

SWEI

Pretty sure I can see what you're describing

but pictures would be great when you have them.

icesailor

Pictures:

I'll post them when I find one going together.

icesailor

Pocket Mud Sills:

Here's some photos of the Heatmaker II I replaced a few years ago with the "issues".

The first pictures show going over the block behind the mud sill. The outside picture shows the location of the vent where it goes through the shingles. The next pictures show the exit that is below the inside floor joists. Notice the shingle covering the old hole for the vent. Remember, the old exhause goes OVER the last top foundation block.



This house is a mouse resort. Here's another house that is a mouse resort.