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Steam Boiler Nozzle Size and Spitting Vents

Good Evening,



I have a one pipe steam system that has only one return. The return is in my ceiling. My home is 1350 sq feet and 2 floors. The Boiler is located in the basement. On the first floor I have 4 radiators and on the second floor I have steam baseboard heating. Two rooms have a valve on and off switch and the other is connected and branched together through 2

rooms with no (on/off) valve that can be seen.



I recently bought this home and had the boiler serviced and they said that I needed and bigger nozzle and my boiler was downsized. So he took off a .5 and put on a .75 which made the oil smell in the boiler room dissipate.



Once he did that my upstairs vents started to spit and leak water all over the floor and once room would not stop letting steam out. I changed the vents which my contractor did.



The spitting didn't stop. I hired someone that claimed to be an expert in steam and he told me to pitch the vents with shims to drain to the return and the vents I had were cheap and wouldn't last.



Would the size of the nozzle make the vents spit water?

My oil contract man stated my peerless boiler is 3x oversized for my home and it needed the bigger nozzle. I had them put back the previous size because the old homeowner stated it needed it to create steam and it solved his issues he had with water.



My main concern is the boiler being downsized. Is that something that needs to be done to prevent water spitting?



I am still in the process of sloping the vents to the return more and changing the upstairs vents to maid-o-mist jacobus. I was going to use 5,6, and 2 c's for the long branch connecting 2 room. I was also going to try to drain the water to let sediments out.



Any other ideas or suggestions?

Comments

  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,495
    questions

    Normally downfiring much more than 20% is not wise. My old boiler was 3X the size it had to be and it worked fine, it had been reduced from 1.65 to 1.25GPH. It was not tremendously efficient but it ran quietly with no spitting.



    After you correct any problems with the pitch of the radiators make sure all the piping in the mains and radiator runouts is pitched correctly.



    Is the water in the boiler sight glass bouncing around a lot as it's making steam? If there is a lot of bouncing and if the water is dirty the boiler may need to be flushed out and then skimmed.



    What pressure is the boiler running at? It should be set to run at 1.5 to 2PSi, higher pressure will cause problems.



    The piping around the boiler does not look correct but lets look at the above issues first.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,495
    refilling

    One thing about draining and refilling a boiler, do not do it when the boiler is hot. You do not want to pump a lot of cold water into a hot boiler.



    Once you do refill it the boiler should be brought up to steam to drive off any oxygen in the water.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
    Make sure your pressuretrol is working

    Usually an oversized boiler will short-cycle on pressure. If it can't cycle on pressure, you'll get the symptoms you describe, and the pressure might reach dangerous levels. Adjust the pressuretrol as Bob suggested, and make sure it cuts out at 1.45 psi. If it goes higher, your pigtail is probably clogged.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    Thanks for your help Bob and Hap Hazzard

    Thanks for your help Bob and Hap Hazzard. I looked at the sight glass and it looks like the water is a little brown. I have had the system turned off for about a month trying to figure out what the issues were. This site is amazing and a big help. I ordered Dans book and look forward to reading it.



    1. To start I pitched the radiators. Can you over pitch them?

    2. I ordered Maid-O-Mist replacement vents based on where the boiler is located and how long the piping is.

    3. I have to drain the boiler still. I have the heat off, should I also turn off the boiler switch and for how long before draining?

    4. My pressure was set at 2 by my oil contractor. I see something that says Honeywell which it looks like its a switch for the pressure you move up and down. I am going to have my oil contractor come out and put on the bigger nozzle because I'm getting a heavy oil smell from it and ill ask him to show me the pressure switch, but I think thats it. Is it beneficial at all to downsize the nozzle by 20% will that help with water spitting in an oversized boiler 3x. I have a .5 and by boiler calls for a .75? I really don't know much about boiler nozzles or boilers in general. Still learning thank to the people on this site and previous response threads I read.



    I am working on these issues and my main vent was sheet rocked in the ceiling. I have to make a access panel to see what it looks like. How would I know if its bad. I have to post more pics, but I am going to try to work on the above first.



    Thank you so much for your help and feedback.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,495
    Gentle pitch is usually best

    The radiators should be pitched just enoug to encourage the water to find it's way back to the boiler, if it's pitched too much it can cause water hammer,  those finned convectors want some slope but not too much..



    As long as the boiler isn't hot you can just kill the power and drain it down, then refill it back to the normal level. You should bring the system up to steam after filling to drive out the dissolved oxygen.



    The pressuretrol should be set so the boiler cuts out at less than 2 PSI (if it will go down that low) and it should cut back in at 0.5 PSI if the thermostat is calling for heat. It's important that the pressure control can "see" the boiler pressure and to do that the pigtail has to be clear. Does the boiler ever shut down on pressure?



    What kind of main vent is on the steam main? These systems usually work best if the mains are vented fast and the radiators are vented relatively slowly.



    What make and model is that boiler and what does the name plate say it's oil consumption should be? You can downfire by maybe 20% but going further than that gets you into uncharted territory.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    Boiler and Piping Critique

    Ok. My Boiler is a Peerless:

    Boiler # JOTTW150S (TW-4)

    Serial # JOTTW 7943-0985

    Gross output btu 180,000

    IBR Burner Capacity: 1.5

    Net 563

    IBR 135,000

    Ratings 156,500



    My pressuretrol is set to .5. My water is clear in the sight glass now. I had the nozzle changed by Slomins Heating to a .75. There is still spitting in 2 of the rooms.



    I contacted a contractor from heating help who stated I should get my piping critiqued from the wall. I read Dans book and realize there's hope.



    I am going to post pictures of my piping and where my main vent is sheet rocked in. I need to make an access panel to see what's there.



    I sloped the radiators and changed the vents but I am sure o didn't size them correctly so I bought the PDF of balancing steam systems to guide me.



    So.... Can you please critique my piping. I have a one pipe system. Steam radiators on the first floor and baseboard on the second floor. One of the baseboards on the second floor connects through the wall into my office and makes it a long brach.



    I think the steam issues have been going on for a while because the water damage on the wall in the master bedroom shows it was massively spitting. The old homeowner said he only could get it to stop spitting by down firing it to a .5 then everything was ok, but I also found a water valve on the bathroom radiator so I decided to ask for help because I want to be able to use my heat. I of course changed it to the correct valve. Right now I rely on a woodburning stove, but it would be nice to use my heat.



    Looking forward to the feedback.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited March 2013
    Which Book?

    Hi- Thanks for posting the pictures as they are always a big help. Tell us which of Dan's books do you have so that we maybe able to give you a reference to page in the book which may better explain a piping problem we can see in the pictures.

    If you don't have a copy already, here's a link where you can download the I&O manual for your model boiler.

    http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/RetiredProducts/SeriesJOTWJOTTW/tabid/159/Default.aspx



    - Rod
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    edited March 2013
    Book

    Rod. The book I have is "We got steam heat". I'm hoping to get the lost art of steam next. It was a very entertaining read. Thanks for the link. If you have any other books you suggest or want to reference to, please do. I would like to further my knowledge about steam heat.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,495
    More questions

    If you look at the install manual piping manual you can see the way the boiler should be piped and for your boiler both boiler risers should have been used. Using both risers and a 2-1/2" header would reduce the velocity of the steam and deliver drier steam. If you look at Dan's books you will see some good examples of how a boiler should be piped.



    What size are the pipes that feed those baseboards? Baseboards can condense steam quickly and if the pipes feeding them is too small the condensate gets into the way of the steam trying to get into that baseboard and that leave the water with no place to go but out the vent. make sure the pipes that feed the baseboard have adequate pitch.



    It sounds like that boiler has been severely downfired, do you know if they ran a combustion analysis  with that small nozzle? Do you know what the EDR of your radiators and baseboards are?



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    Hmmmm

    Thanks Bob, I do see what your saying.



    I don't know the size of the pipes feeding the baseboard. I have a picture of the pipe that branch off into the two rooms. I will have to measure. I pitched the pipes as much as it would raise easily. I have to use a level and check how much it's pitched still.



    Slomins Heating ran an analysis with the plate in front of the boiler for proper ventilation. They put back on the .75 nozzle. I don't know the EDR of my baseboards and radiators yet. I just got the PDF of balancing a steam system and am still trying to calculate it.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,495
    Two pipe?

    There is another post about someone wanting to add a steam baseboard to their system. Charlie brought up a good point when he said it should be added as a two pipe baseboard; that would get rid of the fight between the steam and the water. Maybe yours could be converted to two pipe for the baseboard radiators.



    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    edited March 2013
    Steam baseboard

    Do you think that's a big job to make the upstairs a two pipe system?

    I read in another post somewhere that maybe I could make a return I don't know it that's the same thing?
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 2,157
    header

    Dont think that the boiler has a header. The "header" that is there seems to function only to equalize the steam pressure on the return but not to drain the condensate or more importantly the water carried over from the boiler.
  • Rod
    Rod Posts: 2,067
    edited March 2013
    Boiler Pictures

    Hi- I looked over your pictures and am not quite sure where to start.  Somewhere I saw that the Peerless JOT TW replaced the JOT in 1985 and continued until replaced by the EC in 1994 which is still being built. (I have an Peerless EC).  Considering that your present boiler is least 19 years old, and while it may have more life in it,  I would, if possible, design any new near boiler piping so that piping needs minimal rework to accommodate the new replacement boiler.    This would mean using pipe unions to the new header on both the boiler risers and on the equalizer pipe.



    Return Piping  Definitions - The piping leading back to the boiler from the end of the steam main is know as the “Dry Return” . When this piping turns vertically down towards  the floor it is still the part of the “Dry Return”. However when this same pipe passes below the horizontal water level of the boiler’s waterline, it becomes known as the “Wet Return”. ( Same pipe - “Dry Return about the waterline, “Wet Return” below the waterline.)  The “Wet Return” name applies to all return piping below the boiler’s water line right up to where it connects with the Equalizer pipe on the boiler.  (When I started learning about steam, I found this really confusing and it took me about 3 months to finally figure this out! :)



    Fin Tube vents - Because there is a lot going on in the fin tube steam going one way and water going the other, plus condensing it helps to use a slow (small orifice) vent on 1 pipe fin tube. I use a Hoffman 41 on mine. Since you have the venting book you might want to compare the Hoffman 41 with what you have on it now.  As Bob mentioned in a post above going 2 pipe makes a lot of sense as long as you can run the return piping fairly easily.



    Main vents- You could place the main vents at the end of the dry return before it drops vertically. This would eliminate the need to put them behind the dry wall you now have installed. You might still want to see if any are now installed at the end of the main if you can do it without to much (easy repairable) damage to the drywall.

      You have pump attached to the boiler what does that do /lead to? 



    I had made some notes on your pictures but am having a problem uploading them as my present internet connection is SLOW.  I'm on the road headed to the west coast and I think the area I'm in (eastern Wyoming)  must use a smoke signal interface with the internet! It's that slow!  I'll post them the next good connection I have though that may not be for several days.

    - Rod                     

                                 
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Peerless JOT Boiler:

    Hopefully, this link will send you to the Peerless I&O manual. Whatever they tell you about steam, they are correct.

    http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Products/RetiredProducts/SeriesJOTWJOTTW/tabid/159/Default.aspx

    Download this PDF and look at it if the installation manual with that boiler isn't there.

    Look on page 6. Look at your boiler, a JOT 150S. Look at the chart for piping. The top one doesn't show a header. The next one, yours, shows a header. If the boiler isn't piped like that, it has never worked properly. You can't see how the riser is connected out of the boiler but it doesn't look like an installation by a steam pro.

    I'm not one.

    But your burner. Those guys need a class with the Firedragon. That boiler is rated to fire with 1.50 GPH nozzle. It has been dropped 1.00 GPH to .50 GPH. I have never seen a burner/boiler unit that would run even remotely well when de-rated as far as that and with that red thing that looks like a Beckett, it surely doesn't have the proper combustion head in it. I can't get a good look at the boiler because no matter what picture I click on, I only get the same one, the first one. I hate to think of how bad that boiler is inside. There is a clean-out plate in the front, behind a sheet metal piece about 3" high. I'll bet it has never been off for cleaning. With a .50 GPH nozzle, and the wrong combustion head, the flame probably doesn't get warm enough to stop smoking and smelling. Disgraceful.

    If you can get the piping issues fixed first, you will probably have a nice system.  Jacking up the radiators is not going to solve your problems. They go back to a more basic level than pitching the radiators. If the "steam baseboards" on the second floor are Representative of the second floor and the first floor are all radiators, there is a possibility that they are totally wrong. I think the previous owner needed to carry a can of oil to help his arms and fingers when he reached for his wallet. Or he squeaked. If it's a Cape, with steam radiators on the first floor and a radiator or two upstairs in a hall and or bathroom, that may be the original. The bedroom doors were kept open to let the heat in. My late Brother In Law had a house in Concord, MA that was a development with all steam heat. He added a radiator to an upstairs bedroom that was way on the end of the run. It never worked properly.

    Find a pro and get your supply and venting problems improved. The solution someone came up with to stop the "spitting" was to down-fire the burner and make it run colder. I have found that with that boiler, once you go below 1.25 GPH, the efficiency drops off badly and really will make kibbles and bits.

    Don't give up. It's fixable or at least, improvable
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    Thank you

    Thank you everyone for the wonderful information. I learned A LOT. This wall is amazing. I appreciate everyone's time in helping with my heating woes. I will keep you updated on my progress. At this time I am going to work on the piping and/or replace the boiler since its from 1985. Hopefully that solves most of the issues if not all. :)
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,361
    slow venting on the baseboard heaters

    and making sure the pigtail is clear and the differential is down to 1 on the pressurtrol will help in the mean time.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Radiator
    Radiator Member Posts: 8
    Thank you everyone for your help. Problem solved!

    Thank you everyone for your help. I Hired HBS Plumbing and Heating from

    the Find a Contractor link and he found out that my boiler was piped

    incorrectly, I had a leak in the pipes by the Main Vent and there was a

    Main Vent on the Radiator Main that needed a Gordon #1. All the steam

    vents in the house needed to be changed and pitched.



    Thanks again for all your help.



    Amy
This discussion has been closed.