Steam system questions

clorentzen

Hi -

We've lived in our house for about 8 years, and have generally been happy with our steam heating system (which we inherited when we bought the house, and have not done anything to apart from having the boiler cleaned out, and pitching a couple of the radiators). But it's noisy (occasional gurgling, clanging, hissing from radiator vents). Having started reading "We Got Steam Heat", I was surprised that these noises are not normal... and am now looking to improve/fine-tune our system. I'm including a few pictures of the boiler and piping. A few questions:

1) How do I find out what kind of vents are on the mains, and where do I get the correct replacements?

2) How do i get those main vents off? I tried this morning, but they seem like they don't want to budge.

3) "We Got Steam Heat" says to turn the pigtail if you can see straight through the hole. Is there a "correct" way to do this? It too, doesn't seem like it wants to budge.

4) While I know I need to insulate the pipes, is there anything bad/problematic about the way the piping is set up (apart from the fact that they used copper, which there's nothing I can do about at this point...)?



Thanks in advance!!

BobC

Vents have to be sized

Main vents are sized according to the length and size of the steam mains they are on. Tell us how long each steam main is and how big it is (outside circumference is fine) and we can tell you what size vent you should have. As long as those vents have been there it will take a good 18" or larger pipe wrench to get them free.



The type of pressuretrol you have has a microswitch in it so don't worry about the pigtails orientation. From what I can see in the picture your pressure might be set to high, that tab on the front should be set to 0.5 PSI and the white knob inside the pressuretrol should be set to one. Steam systems work best at low pressure.



It's hard to see whats going on with your near boiler piping, try backing up and take shots from different angles so we can see the piping above the boiler and especially the boiler header.



Bob

Paul48

Pictures

We need to see the piping better. Light up the area, step back and get more in the photo. We can blow things up if we need to. From the little I can see, It was not installed by a professional.

clorentzen

Length and size of steam mains

Bob, when you say to measure the length and size of the steam mains, exactly what length(s) am I measuring? Piping leaving the boiler eventually ascends into the (finished) basement ceiling, so I just want to make sure I am (and can) measure exactly what needs to be measured.



I'll try to take some better pictures. The boiler is enclosed in a small room, in the basement, so it's hard for me to get better angles on the piping configuration behind the boiler.



Thanks again,



Carl

Paul48

Holy Smokes!

They came out of the boiler horizontal!

BobC

Mains

The steam outlet of the boiler goes up and ties into the steam mains that run around the cellar ceiling, radiator feeds come off these mains and connect to the individual radiators. Most steam mains are usually between 2 and 3" diameter (7 to 10 inch circumference). We need to know roughly how long they are and about what size the pipe is so we can calculate the volume of air they contain.



Bob

Paul48

Bob

I'm afraid that is beyond tweaking and may be dangerous.There is a gas hot water heater and the boiler enclosed in a small room. Where is the combustion air coming from? The boiler as piped is more akin to a fire hose, than a steam boiler.The mechanical room needs to be looked at from a safety standpoint, at the very least. Noisy boiler and piping can wait, if need be.

clorentzen

horizontal...

Paul, what "they" are you referring to?



Thanks,



Carl

clorentzen

Air

As far as the air goes (and I'm not implying this is correct, just supplying more info), while the room is enclosed, there are two 16"x16" air grates/vents in the side walls of the room to allow for air flow, in addition to the air that can get in under the (ill-fitting) doors.

Paul48

Install

Whoever installed that boiler did not install a header above the boiler.They came out of the boiler and ran their pipe horizontally, then turned vertical to connect to the equalizer above. That pipe will fill with condensate and burp steam past it, at best.At least, that's what I see.You can find the manual for your boiler online if you don't have it.In it you'll see the manufacturers installation specs.

Paul48

Sorry

Don't mean to sound like an alarmist, but I'm just concerned with your safety.It sounds like someone has accounted for the necessary air for the room.With what appears to be homeowner, or handyman work on the boiler, you never know.

MTC

Its hard to tell from the pictures,

but it looks like its sort of piped correctly, other than the copper thing.



Coming off the side of that boiler is probably spec. Now they probably should have used both tappings, off both sides of the boiler, but coming off the side is ok. It comes out, turns 90 upward immediately, to a sort of header. The problem is that the riser to the system comes straight off the top of the riser from the boiler through a tee. There is sort of a header there, but the riser is in the wrong place on the header. And of course it should all be threaded steel, not copper. And it probably should have 2 boiler risers...



I don't see a major safety concern, but I could also be seeing it wrong. More pictures will definitely help.

clorentzen

thanks

Thanks for your concern and information. I appreciate it. I'm actually the one who installed those 16"x16" vent grates when we moved into the house 8 years ago -- after a chimney person we had over to inspect the chimney and venting suggested that the room didn't have sufficient airflow.

clorentzen

a few more pictures

It's hard as heck taking pictures of the near boiler piping in that room (combined with the fact that I'm a terrible photographer), but here are a few more pictures. Not sure if they are useful or not.

Paul48

OK

How does any splash or condensate get to the equalizer?

Paul48

Manual

http://www.crownboiler.com/manuals/content/All_Models/Jamaica%20(JBF-SPD,%20JBF-EID).pdf

MTC

Not saying its piped right...

it isn't. But piping off the side like that isn't necessarily wrong in these large old boilers. The only difference between this piping and a proper header (besides material), that I see is that the riser to the system comes straight off the riser from the boiler. The splash/condensate in this part would partially go over into the header, though not much, and partially drop right back into the boiler. The water that gets up the system riser to that horizontal in the riser will go over to where it ties into the old cast, and down through the drip line there.



As I said, not right, but not as much of a train wreck as many near boiler setups. I think you'd want to see 2 risers off boiler to the header, with the takeoff to the system after both boiler risers, not on top of one of them. This will address your concern Paul. And of course not in copper...



Carl, imagine how much it sucked to pipe that, if its so hard to take pictures :-P

Paul48

Steam

The steam you do manage to push by the "hydraulic dam", then has to deal with another at that tee going up to the main.

MTC

Which hydrolic dam is that?

the one specified in the manual you just posted?



The only major issue here, unless I'm missing something obvious, is that the riser off the header to the system should be in the middle of the header, not coming off the top of the boiler riser. This situation creates wetter steam, definitely.



And of course the pesky copper piping issue that's oh-so-common.

clorentzen

Mains - measurements

More info on the earlier question about the mains... The steam mains are 2" in diameter. In one direction it's about 24 ft long (from the boiler to the back of the house), and the other direction is about 12 ft. long (from the boiler to the front of the house). Do I also need to include the vertical spans that run between the first and second floors of the house? Those appear to be smaller 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" pipes.

Paul48

OK

I Surrender.

BobC

Three vents needed.

The 12 ft main contains about 0.26 cu ft of air and the 24 ft would have about 0.52 cu ft. I would start with a Gorton #1 (0.33cfm) on the short main and use 2ea Gorton #1's on the longer main. If you can't find Gorton's locally you could use Maid O mist #1's, they the same rate as far as venting goes. That should be enough to vent the air from the mains and near boiler piping fast.



On the long main you will have to come off the main with a nipple (6" if you have enough height), then a elbow into a short nipple, a T , a nipple, and finally and elbow. Mount the vents on the open port of the T and on the end elbow and make the assembly has a bit of slope so any water can drain back to the main.



The vertical risers to the second floor will be vented by the vents on those radiators, for even heating you may need slower venting rates on the first floor radiators than those on the second floor. It will take a little experimentation to balance it all out.



Bob