Getting more frustrated

JoeA1979

This is a two part question.



1. On my original post a few months ago I described my system. At that time I was lacking insulation on the basement piping, main air vents and my near boiler piping was described as "not good". So I bought the "You Got Steam Heat" book read through it fixed a few things. Some radiators had vents (2 pipe system) so i plugged them, and then insulated the piping. The pipes quieted down for the most part. Occasional knock or bang.



Last night I installed Gorton Air Vents on the Main piping 15's past the main risers. the vents work as they should. However now I have a banging, possible water hammer on the first risers past the boiler on each main. Any ideas what happened. Should I remove the vents?



2. This is easy, what is this configuration in the picture. The outside insulated pipes are the end of the mains. The center pipe is the very end of the return. There is a ball valve at the bottom? I can drain water out every so often. Im perplexed.

JStar

Steam

Where do those pipes go from there at the bottom?

JoeA1979

More Detail

See Attached, this may answer your question.

JStar

Piping

Is the return main lower than both steam mains?

JoeA1979

yes

Its about 1" to 1 1/4" the end gradually sloping to the boiler.

Steamhead

What Jstar meant is

once all the water gets to the short horizontal pipe at the bottom of all three main drips, where you show the drain, how does it get back to the boiler from that point?

JoeA1979

Well.....

1.Obviously the down pipes are after the last risers, so the only water heading that way is additional condensate. This is my problem, the only way water get out is when I drain it into the sump. I have no idea what the heck it is for.



2.Any ideas on why i would gain a water hammer/knocking (Very beginning of cycle) after installing the vents.

Steamhead

If the steam and return mains

slope down toward that point, that's your problem, or at least part of it. There may have been a wet return from there back to the boiler that some knucklehead removed. It will have to be re-installed.

JoeA1979

Confusion

I might have caused some. That is the high point for all the ends. The mains are on a slight incline to that point. The return (center) slopes from that point back to the radiator.

pipeking

what about

a f&t trap? shouldn't that b there

Steamhead

If the mains slope DOWN from those drips to the boiler

then it's a water seal similar to that used on the Tudor system. This functioned as a safety valve, letting the water blow out into the dry return if the pressure got too high.



With this setup, the steam mains are "counterflow" since any condensate therein flows opposite the steam. Therefore the steam needs to be as dry as possible. Is your near-boiler piping up to spec?

MTC

Looks like a drip loop

in lieu of an F&T trap. The whole thing should be full of condensate, if that's the case. Draining it could cause steam to blow through into the return lines and cause water hammer on the return side (as well as wreaking havoc on your steam traps, etc). You should not be draining that loop, it needs to be full of condensate to create a steam trap.

mike m_3

loop seal anyone?

might have to add water to that middle pipe,which is part of your return, to make up for the condensate you are takeing out through te drain

mike m_3

loop

After you drain off some crud from the bottom of the loop ,attach a length of hose to the drain, raise the other end of the hose up to the level where the pipe goes vertical again and fill the hose with water ,(i use a watering can) until it will take no more. Now  you have filled that loop and the system will push that water back to your boiler as return condensate.

JoeA1979

Thanks

I appreciate the help. The loop makes a bit more sense now. I will be removing the airvents I installed on Saturday on the mains tonight. Hopefully it will be back to a quiet system, with no venting (odd).

MTC

Fill the loop with water first

and leave your vents alone. Vents should be there. Sealing off the return from steam again may solve your problem. Adding vents increased the speed at which steam was moving down your mains, and since it could fly right through that loop, it was probably picking up condensate and slamming it into a fitting in the return. It didn't do this before b/c it was filling too slowly to push the water fast enough.



The answer isn't to make it wrong again, the answer is to fix what was wrong and keep the venting. Adding venting exposed a problem. Fix the problem, not the symptom