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Rattling sound
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This might sound crazy
but do you have a Youtube account ? Is there any chance you can take a video with sound of the rattling noise and upload it ? I'm not sure if you can directly load a video on this website ....... Sound of the boiler running would be nice too .
As for the sound level ............ you might be right that it's louder than a microwave . But I'm not lying when I say at least 5 or 6 customers told us they didn't realize the EK was running .0 -
I have a
service tech coming over Thursday. I discovered a weeping from a pipe connection. The pipe goes from Boiler out of heat exchanger to where both EK air scoop and Supervent are at base of junction. The rattling noise seems to be coming from the Supervent/Spirovent but it's in close proximity to EK air scoop.
There wouldn't be much gained from posting on youtube, mainly because of audio range not being accurately reproduced.
As for your customers who can't hear it running, maybe they have a finished basement with acoustical tile, don't know, but I know this system is far from silent and certainly louder than a microwave.0 -
Supervent removed and
rattling noise is gone. The tech removed Honeywell Supervent and installed piece of piping to replace the leaking part to EK-hi vent.
The problem is now there seems to be lots of air in the system. I do have good heat, but I am also hearing gurgling sounds. Perhaps it takes days for air to be removed? I know last time it was purged this wasn't a problem at all. However, since the system was open for the work performed, it may require a second purging? What do you guys think?
The way he purged it was draining each zone.
One more thing, I have only one EK air scoop and the tech said they come with two air scoops. My unit is four years old.0 -
I called
EK and was told only one air vent comes with the boiler. He said if anyone installs it with 2 air vents, they are doing it on their own.
They are coming back tomorrow for I believe to bleed the system again.0 -
I have not ...
had much experience w/ EK2K but from the info you have given I have a couple suggestions... 1) either replace the circulator w/ a 007 OR at least pull the check valve out of the grundfos 15-58. You can't have an IFC circ w/ the zone valves.
2) Replace the guts on the HW super vent. It may be just crudded up OR replace the supervent w/ a spirovent. After the system is purged and parts replace I would add/ pump in some dish washing detergent to help w/ the air issues.0 -
Interesting suggestions but
since rattling noise is gone, I don't see any reason to buy a Spirovent. EK sells these systems with just one air vent, and they claim that's all you need.
Having 2 air vents does not necessarily solve my air problem.
I agree the check valve should be taken out of the Grundfos, and I asked the installer to do that, but he refused. The guys coming over now do not have much knowledge of Grundfos, and expressed no knowledge of how to remove check valve.
I never heard of dish-washing detergent being used like that, and I really don't want to do anything that voids my EK warranty. My system was installed in March of 2009.
EK recommends 8-way boiler treatment but present service company (EK recommended) does not carry it, they have to order 8-way from EK. When I asked him why they don't carry it, he said because they don't use it in EK 2000 installations, but instead install a scale filter on the boiler feed.0 -
IFC
If you ever feel adventuress, the integral flow check is a white plastic piece that you can see inside the top of the circulator flange. I believe I remember taking one out with my fingers. I can't tell from your pictures which side is the top on your circulator since I haven't installed enough of them to remember looking at it sideways. The lettering on the wiring cover should give you a clue.
Maybe you will get a different tech and he will remove the IFC for you before he purges your system?!
As far as I know, the 8 way comes with every System 2000 boiler unless the company specifies that they remove it from the order. It came with every boiler I was involved with installing.
I'm glad your noise issue seems to be gone.0 -
The owner of
the service company came over and said the circulator has to be removed to take out the flow check. The Grundfos is very difficult to install because of piping and clearance. The supervisor who installed the Grundfos years ago, had a very difficult time, even installed it wrong on first try.
Yes, rattling noise is gone, but lots of air remain in system. Gurgling is heard upstairs and down, very bad in my den, first zone. After 1 or 2 passes, the gurgling stops. Even with that, I have good heat, no problem with heat at all.
The owner who came over yesterday thinks the EK air vent is not functioning properly. He also thinks I may need to wash out the boiler with vinegar because of that water splashing sound that seems to be at rear of boiler when heat is on. Seems like that splashing sound gets a bit better when temperature on pressure gauge falls below 170. He also suggested an air vent on the supply pipe in my den.
He noted the humming sound heard from the boiler was louder than normal, but offered no solution. He checked level/pitch of boiler and confirmed it was fine.0 -
The DW detergent....
Ajax, dawn or Palmolive will not hurt the boiler at all. It will get rid of the air problem.... Just look at the post on the wall titled "Another satisfied customer of the wall"....0 -
Plumber came over
this morning to fix my toilet that wouldn't stop running. He has to get a handle but meanwhile I can flush and make it stop. He saw brown stain inside and said it was iron bacteria that would cause air to get in boiler, something about the iron bacteria turning into sulfur and releasing air inside.He suggested a well shock with I think he said clorox and that would get rid of the iron bacteria which in turn would help get rid of air once the system is bled. The problem as he put it is bleeding the system introduces air inside the boiler because of the iron bacteria, which I assume he means water coming in contains iron bacteria. However, if that is the case, I wonder if iron bacteria is present inside the boiler now and how to deal with it if it is there.
I should add we don't see any brown stains in sinks or toilet bowls, just inside the toilet tank.0 -
Definitely !
Looking forward to catching up !0 -
well shock
is fine for your DHW, but a properly operating hydronic boiler should not be adding water on a regular basis. Sodium hypochlorite (aka bleach) is a strong oxidizer and the last thing you want in contact with ferrous materials, so if you do shock the well, do not allow any of that water into your heating system until after it the DHW piping is very well flushed.
Boiler water treatment (8-way, Rhomar, whatever) will take care of bacterial issues along with preventing corrosion and helping to dispel air.0 -
Iron bacteria ?
That's a new one for me .......
It really does sound like these techs have no idea how to properly purge a boiler .
Unless they're purging the zones with 20+ psi pressure , you'll have the sloshing sounds for a long time .
I never put bleach in a system and I'm not sure if there's any benefit to it .0 -
Sounds like you
know how to bleed my system, Ron. Problem is getting someone like you to do it for me.
From what you guys have said, I am not doing that well shock.0 -
Not really adding water all the time
Everything was relatively fine except for sudden rattling noise. I had someone come over and he took off circulator, zone valve, and Supervent for inspection, put them back on and left without bleeding system. After that I only had one zone working at a time, one zone out of three. I called someone else and they bled the system, but air was still prevalent. The rattling noise was still there and next guy came over and removed Honeywell Supervent and rattling noise is gone, however, lots of air in the system.
I've always had a sloshing sound at the supply pipe in my den when the heat came on in that zone, just for 1 or 2 passes at most. I gave up trying to solve that issue because after spending big bucks and getting nowhere, I decided to let it go. EK had their field rep for my area come over and his suggestions, including moving expansion tank from supply to return side did nothing.0 -
The only thing I can suggest
is to make sure each zone works properly and without the sloshing noises " before " the next technician leaves your home . I did this just the other day on an EK install . 5 heating zones and we ran each one to make sure the thermostats controlled the right zone valve . And to check there was no air left in the system . I actually crossed 2 zones .... No one's perfect !
It really is not a big deal to " power purge " as long as the boiler relief valve is piped into a bucket and the hose being used to purge is in a safe place to handle the water . I hope at least one technician will get your heat going trouble free soon Mel .0 -
I'm not sure what you mean by
" power purge " as long as the boiler relief valve is piped into a bucket.
They connect a hose to the return side and purge each zone from there. I think they lift the pressure/relief valve while doing so.0 -
Power purge
is what we call purging with the fast fill lever up on the pressure reducer valve . I try to purge all zones at 20 to 25 psi . It's important to have a bucket under the relief valve pipe because the chance of it discharging while purging is pretty high on an EK . Good luck with the system Mel .0 -
Mel
If they have ever worked with, or heard of antifreeze, have them purge the system by pump. They will not be introducing more fresh water in to the system, they will be using the existing water content to purge the air out. These guys are sounding more and more pathetic as I read your posts. I have yet to run into an EK that has an air-bound zone, or has an air problem0 -
I'm not sure how
that is done: " have them purge the system by pump. They will not be introducing more
fresh water in to the system, they will be using the existing water
content to purge the air out."
It would seem to me that doing that, pumping in water, would be better if done from water brought in, not well water. How would they pump in existing water? Do you mean purge and use purged water to pump back in?0 -
yes Mel
an external pump to recirc the existing water. I like to do it that way anyway, water or antifreeze. After 30 years, your back and lugging 5 gallon buckets don't go hand and hand anymore0 -
Do you suggest
purge one zone with others closed and repeat pumping in until air is out, repeat with second zone while others are closed off, and repeat with third zone with others closed off?0 -
only way
to successfully purge, is always one zone at a time, and if the zone is a split loop, only 1 half at a time0 -
Okay, but here is
my question, if you pump back what you took out and what you took out has air in it, then how are you getting rid of air?0 -
Same Procedure
for hot water systems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wt5DuoSBQRs0 -
A whole new ballgame
The service company owner contacted EK and inquired about why there is water splashing sound at rear of boiler. EK's response was it could be a defective heat exchanger, in boiler no longer covered under warranty because it's 4 years, or he could put a blanket on or near, forget which, and try that. The splashing sound was there within first month of installation, day one to be exact. EK rep was over a few months later and heard that sound--he did not say anything about heat exchanger or blanket. But, now, no longer under warranty, EK is saying heat exchanger. Wow, what a great company is EK!
With credit cards nearly maxed out, I can thank EK for all their help in making me a poorer person. I spent lots of money based on recommendations from EK recommended service companies, even the Supervent that had to be removed. I paid to have it installed, and I paid to have it removed, aside from other service recommendations that solved nothing.
If anyone looking to buy an EK system reads this, good luck!0 -
It's better but
not perfect. The service company installed a "blanket" deep inside the chamber, around what I think is called the heat exchange. They left it with pressure on gauge reaching 20 max and circulator on medium. There is a significant reduction of that water splashing sound, but it clearly remains. This service company guy is the first one to say that splashing sound is water boiling and is causing air in the system--and it makes sense to me. I've had that splashing sound since first getting the boiler, and I've had air in the system from the beginning.
The question remains, why is water boiling like that causing air in the system?0 -
The answer is
my boiler is boiling water and causing air in the system. This, apparently, is a known issue with some of these boilers. The blanket helps and that's why it was done, helps but not cures. I am not hearing the defective heat exchanger story anymore, so it's just my luck to get stuck with a system 2000 that boils water and makes air. The boiling takes place at rear of boiler and is heard as a splashing sound.
I believe the explanation because I've had air in the system from day one. However, no one is saying I have a defective boiler and EK should replace it, and who besides me really cares? EK? Heck, they got their money a long time ago, 4 years to be exact.
The question remains if this is a known issue, why didn't the EK rep who came over my house within the first 6 months and heard the splashing say it was boiling water? Ah, maybe it wasn't a known issue at that time. Maybe, maybe, maybe.... The Chantels from sometime in the 60's.0 -
Mel
I have personally never heard of that being an issue with them, doesn't mean that it is not possible, but I think you have a bad install and been getting bad service and advice. What model is this?0 -
EK System 2000:
I've never installed one, seen a few but I never did a careful run through.
That said, I can't find an install manual or spec sheet. Boilers like that that are fed from the front section and returned to the front section, can be prone to bad circulation (in my opinion) with poor water flow in the back of the boiler. Years ago, I installed a number of Repco boilers that a supplier sold me. I always used one size. They worked OK but they all turned to crap. I installed one that was the next size up. It would not circulate water to the back of the boiler. They had a 8184H (I think) for a control with the capillary sensor in the back section and the tank less in the front. The boiler would be hot in the back and keep the burner off on high limit while it was cold around the tankless. There was no tapping in the back of the boiler to improve internal circulation in the block. The block was too long.
Back when I used to install Weil-McLain #68 boilers, I always bought "A" blocks rather than #P# Package boilers because the "A" blocks had a tapping on the bottom of the back section. I always got better flow circulation through the boiler.
If it is really a problem, and you want something to look at, try a double tapped bushing where the return goes into the bottom of the boiler and run a piece of copper tube, screwed into the inside of the bushing that will run water to the back of the boiler. Drill some holes along the tube but leave the back open. It will improve boiler circulation. EK could eliminate this problem (in my opinion) by putting a 3/4" tapping in the back of the boiler on the bottom where you can run a recirc. line from the boiler out/system supply and a balancing valve.0 -
Frontier model
System 2000. Apparently it is a known problem, per EK. I don't think it has anything to do with the installation, which while not the best, is not causing the splashing sound or air in the system. What the service guy said, and he is owner of the company, makes sense to me. Water boiling is making air. I am certain EK wouldn't say this is a known issue if it weren't. EK was the one who suggested trying the blanket, which they said has helped with this problem.
Blaming an installation that could be better is easy, but the real problem lies within the boiler itself.0 -
Not really Mel
I know this is more about sour grapes with you, and that is probably why no one else has responded. If the boiler is not installed correctly, than it won't perform correctly. Is it level? What are the temps? Where are the dip switches set? There is so much that is involved in a good install and set up.0 -
Return on System 2000's is on top
Ice,
The System 2000 heat exchanger is a 10' long piece of steel rolled into a coil. The design is a forced circulation counterflow so the flue passages exit in one direction and the boiler water returns from the system on the top of the boiler and exits the boiler at the hottest point closest to the flame. The supply tapping is in the back of the Frontiers and about midway in height toward one side.
The main (system) circulator should always be running if the burner is firing. Most of the time, the boiler is installed with zone valves so there is only one circulator.0 -
What do you
really know? Do you think service guys who have come here are all so dumb? Of Course it's level. No, I think all EK "people" are the ones blaming installation.
Do you even read what I write? Have you not read about the boiler boiling water and making air? EK knows about it, it happens with some of their boilers. I have had not just supervisors and owners come over, owner of company that services EK, and an EK representative. Ah, but you know better and refuse to believe what EK says in regard to the boiler boiling water.
Oh, and there have been some people trying to help. I now know the problem and posted it above. ice sailor offered a solution. You are just trying to rehash the old installation thing. Well, no one has ever been here and said the installation could be causing air in the system, but from YOUR vantage point, you know better.
The problem has been discovered and it's not the installation, unless you mean the construction of what's inside the boiler.0 -
last post
Good luck Mel. If you have the answers, why ask questions?0 -
Because
the answer was known when I posted it above. If you have been following this thread, you should know that. If you don't believe the explanation by those who I referred to, EK and owner of service company, and you think you know better from your vantage point, good luck to you!0
This discussion has been closed.
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