Best replacement for old Crown c-247 steam boiler

JIK

Hi, I am in need of replacing a Crown C-247 steam boiler powering a single pipe steam heating system in a 10,000 square building. It is very cold here in central NY - bad timing, but it will be good replacing this very old, tired unit.



The unit fits nicely with the somewhat slightly low ceiling height (7 1/2 feet), and exhausts conveniently out a nearby basement chimney.



The input/ 600,000- output/ 480,000 btu output gas- fired boiler upon analysis seems to have been correctly sized for my rad/ pipe system.



I called Crown to order a replacement, the slightly more modern 32 series, and was told they stopped manufacturing that model last year.



My challenge is, browsing the assorted manufacturers, I am unable to choose an optimal replacement brand and model. I find choosing a model with similar btu output, somewhat primitive qualities matching my primitive system, and the most flexibility and efficiency for my particular situation difficult.



The building is a historic house in the historic district, so I am very limited in updating to a more modern system. The rads are mostly single pipe, but work pretty well, and there are about 60 of them.



I would prefer a model with the flexibility to potentially also accommodate hot water two-pipe modification at a future time, but due to the ornate complexity of the layout, the cost of this is not presently feasible. Plus, the piping and layout look like they were expertly designed by old school heat men a long time ago, and with my limited expertise, I do not wish to mess with altering this too much.



Any suggestions as to a specific brand and model currently available would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

nicholas bonham-carter

Choosing a replacement

How has the old boiler failed? Can you limp along until spring to give yourself enough time to do this right? Analysis of the failure can be a guide in the replacement.

First thoughts are that the radiators should be sized for their edr, and then the aggregate total would be used to size the new boiler. Do not assume the previous boiler was correctly sized. I have,55 radiators, with a 1 mil btu boiler.

Your new boiler will need to have a lower waterline than most so as to give enough height to the header. This will probably be a wet-base boiler, with a drop-header. You may be able to use 2 half-size boilers to achieve this as well.

Have you tried the find a contractor button here? --NBC

todd_ecr

C-247 replacement

The Crown C-247 was a Dunkirk manufactured boiler. A direct replacement would be the Dunkirk D248-600S or the Utica JD-600S.



Specifications are availible on either of our websites. www.dunkirk.com or www.uticaboilers.com

todd_ecr

C-247 replacement

More specifically- http://www.dunkirk.com/product/d248

http://uticaboilers.com/product_detail.asp?key=158

Steamhead

What you need is a good Steam Man

to determine why that boiler failed and how to prevent the same thing happening later.



The Dunkirk boiler Todd mentioned is an atmospheric type of gas boiler, which is not the most efficient type of steam boiler available. You may be so limited by available headroom as to not have much of a choice, but if you can I'd go with a wet-base boiler with a power burner. This will send more heat to the radiators rather than up the chimney or into the boiler room.



Then we need to look at the system- you may think it works all right, but I'm sure it could be upgraded so it heats faster on less fuel. We see this all the time. Click on my company name at the bottom of this posting for one example of this.



And don't even think about converting that system to hot-water, unless you like living dangerously. Too many things can go wrong.



Steam really isn't "primitive" just because it's old. These systems were built to last, and will still be here long after we've joined the Dead Men.

Hap_Hazzard

The make and model mean practically nothing.

All that really matters is the total EDR of the connected load. You need to make a survey of the existing radiation.



If headroom is limited in the boiler room, you should use a drop header so the boiler risers can extend at least 24" from the maximum water level to the first elbow. The header design can also compensate for the reduced steam chest capacity.



Most modern steam boilers can be used for hot water with a few modifications, so if you're seriously considering such a conversion, that would be the least of your worries. The biggest would be the reduction in heat output at the radiators. The dead men who designed this system selected radiators on the basis of how much heat they could produce by converting steam to hot water. This phase-change yields significantly more heat than simply cooling hot water by a few degrees.



While most steam heating systems incorporated significant excess capacity, given the lack of insulation in older buildings, there's no guarantee that the overkill is sufficient to support a conversion from steam to hot water in any particular case. You would need to start from square one with heat loss calculations to determine the amount of radiation required.

JIK

Upgrading crown c-247 gas fired steam boiler, sticking with 1 pipe steam; EDR = 1,550

And number of radiators = 39.



I am not interested in converting to two pipe hot water.

I will post a few photos of the building we are renovating.

It is a very unusual, magnificent 1890 10,000 sq. ft. Estate built by Vivian, a famous local architect who built a number of other gorgeous buildings in Ithaca, NY, and Cornell Campus, but none as unique or magnificent as this property.



The ornateness and elegant complexity of the woodwork, detail, and even the radiator bays is something else. It is a pleasure to be a part of this restoration.



The existing piping emanating from the Crown boiler, installed to replace an older coal- fired boiler, is very sad. I'll post a few photos to illustrate just how lame this system was.



Even so, the approximately 32 currently working of the overall 39 radiators actually put out enough heat to keep the building fairly comfortable, but at too great a cost for natural gas, and the boiler was over- firing to compensate for the bad 1980s modified "upgrade".



We will be replacing the extensive existing returns, but the supply pipes are in fairly good condition.



They are a mixed bag as far as the asbestos pipe wrap goes though, with a fair amount of curling and peeling within the walls.



A few of the most massive ceiling- hung radiators are missing, as well as the occasional medium and smaller sized radiator.



The 1550 EDR calculation encompasses the missing units, some of which are still on the premises but disconnected.



The near- boiler piping is all insulated with thick fiberglass sleeves.



It's quite a house, and I want to make sure that I am sizing the boiler effectively, and would prefer the Weil- Mclein brand, and actually have a line on a like- new 500,000 btu unit.



Thanks for the input,

JIK

JIK

More on crown boiler replacement specifics; the building is a five story (including the

1/2 above ground- level basement) massive dwelling, with over three dozen small, medium and large great rooms, medium and smaller chambers, six bathrooms, four kitchens, a large two story gone with the wind winding stairway grand entrance, and more than 80 windows.



The small windows are bigger than most modern house windows, and the large windows are huge. The glass is mostly old, wavy, single pane original glass.



There is very little insulation in the outer walls, and the basement and first floors walls are 23 inches thick.



Even the basement has many huge windows above ground grade level.

It has slate roofs, and fortunately the roofs are all fully well- insulated.



Thanks for the input.

JIK

Here are some pics of worn out, no longer used c-247 boiler; the

Area presently has a lot of clutter we will be removing next week.

The boiler died (thank goodness) awhile ago and will be removed from site next week.

Hap_Hazzard

Is this the Williams House?

Down in the flats, on N Cayuga, or some other Vivian building? It's the only one I can recall having 5 floors. (At least I think it did.) It definitely had a grand entrance.

I grew up in Ithaca. Well, at least to extent to which I can be said to have grown up. :-)

Hap_Hazzard

The Weil-McLain EGH-115 is only a 1,250 ft² EDR boiler

Even their biggest Series 4 boiler is only rated at 1,375.



Peerless makes (or made?) a 1,583 ft² Series 64.



Might want to ask some of the pros about the possibility of going with two smaller wet-base boilers. I don't know much about the details, but I think that would be the most efficient way to go.

Hap_Hazzard

Near-boiler piping doesn't look too bad to me.

It will be interesting to hear what some of the pros pick up on, but I don't see any glaring errors.

JIK

Yes, it is indeed the Williams house

!

JIK

Yes, it is indeed the Williams house

I am in the process of updating this estate to hopefully prepare it for the next 50-100 years of fine living.

JIK

Yes, it is indeed the Williams house

The infrastructure is fairly sound, and the quality is superb.

The layout limits altering from the elaborate single pipe steam system originally installed.



Hey, I happen to love steam heat, and even with the deficient, messed with system the heating bills were surprisingly modest, oversized and under- performing boiler and all.

JIK

Yes, it is indeed the Williams house

The heating system has not worked adequately for at least several decades, and I can see why. Not a 24" minimum to header, complex convoluted piping, rads taken off line.

Steamhead

If you prefer Weil-McLain

why not use a 5-80 with a power gas burner, at just over 1600 square feet EDR?



http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/weil-mclain/pd-80-commercial-gas-oil-boiler/



You might even be able to get a burner that will do lo-hi-lo firing.

Dave in QCA

Looks like my old Pennco!

I just replaced a 34 year old Pennco boiler that looked much like yours.  Both made by ECR I believe.  My replacement was a Weil-McLain 680.  I oversized mainly because of possible future need to put steam back in the garage and apartment.  First month of operation I am saving 1/3 of my previous operating cost.  I am very happy with the WM 80 series.  Very heavy duty, big thick sections, high water content, great steam chest.  Pretty good efficiencies too!

JIK

Thank you- the 80 series looks more appropriate/ the Weil brand , while highly recommended to me by

several self- proclaimed local steam install specialists, enjoys a fine reputation.

My main concern however, is to choose the brand and model best suited to my specific installation needs.



Having heard the pitch regarding the Weil brand being so highly regarded from so many local boiler dudes gives me more confidence in this brand.



However, the more I drill into my head the wisdom of Dan's books and writings, as well as you guys' online words of wisdom, one thing is becoming clearer;



The recommendation for the Weil egh-115 described as my best option, and the biggest of the type appropriate to my scenario is probably due to two factors;

1. The lack of comprehensive understanding and

2. The convenient access to this particular model through their distribution network.



I am quickly coming to understand the lack of in- depth knowledge from which these local "pros" are drawing expert conclusions.



A quick glance at the actual EDR charts in the Weil 80 series and the Peerless boilers recommended to me in this thread reveal the limited scope of local knowledge as to the proper sizing for my system.



Wow- what a fine line between science and voodoo.



I wish to ask of those here so kind to further circumscribe a viably efficient configuration as if this were your own install.



For instance, the possibility of a lo-hi-lo firing configuration was nixed by several of the local boiler guys I talked to. Still, I wondered if this might be feasible, as I have regarding other efficiency- enhancing considerations. I may indeed lack the headroom, but realize I am probably going to need to make this determination without relying on these local pros.



The more I have studied, the more I have quizzed one then another prospective installer and have been astonished that with my recent and fairly limited new- found knowledge, it became quickly obvious several could not even accurately identify what and where the equalizer, Hartford loop, or other basic components of my system actually consisted of.



One guy showed me a Weil 115 install in a similarly sized mansion up the hill from me.

I immediately noticed he had replaced the iron with copper pipe, and after looking at the EDR specs in the boiler manual, realize he also undersized the boiler to the EDR requirements. What a hornet's nest. And it turns out this was the second boiler replacement in two years the hapless owners had endured!



I'd like to do this install optimally.



The reason I am putting a new boiler in now, is I have the opportunity to broker a bank mortgage based on a professional firm leasing 4000 square feet of space from me, and they want to move in by April 1st. This would allow me to make an enterprise of this beautiful estate, and assume stewardship for many years to come with the economic cash flow to satisfy bank loan credit assurance requirements.



I don't want to rush the install in such a way that I end up with sub-standard results though.

I do have one local boiler guy willing to discuss with me rather than talk down to me in order to make the right decisions prior to action. He is coming in Monday, and is actually happy I am seeking council on this forum. A partner-in-grime.



This forum is truly a blessing from the Steam- heating gods.



I see what you mean by "dead men". Of the two old timers recommended to me by local institutions, one just retired in December at age 71, the other passed away recently at 86.

Hap_Hazzard

Weil-McLain 80 vs. Peerless 64-12

According to the ratings the Peerless is a little more efficient (82.4% vs. 80%). This is surprising to me since the Peerless is just an old-fashioned atmospheric boiler. Are these numbers accurate?



Would there be any advantage, in terms of efficiency, in using two smaller wet-base boilers with power burners?

Dave in QCA

Ratings vs Ratings

The ratings always get confusing because of the different ways of rating.  Combustion efficiency vs Thermal Efficiency.



The WM 80 series, according to the brochure has combustion efficiency of 82% and a Thermal Efficiency of 80% when firing gas.   The Peerless 64-12 has a combustion efficiency of 82.4% and a Thermal Efficiency of 79.9% when running on steam. 



While these seem nearly the same, they are not quite as close as would seem because according to my understanding, commercial boilers are rated only when they are firing.  What happens when they are setting in standby should be taken into account as well.  On an atmospheric, the flue is open and the boiler will release a large amount of heat by convection through the block and on up the chimney.  On a wet base boiler with power burner, providing it is a burner on which the air inlet shuts when it is not in operation, air flow through the boiler does not occur at all.  I can attest that my old Peerless put out so much waste heat that the chimney stayed quite warm all the way through the 3rd floor.  Since the new WM 680 has been installed, it is difficult to find a warm spot in the wall at all.



Powerflame has a 2 stage that is approved for the 580.  I ended up going with the 680 because I really wanted the Riello 2 stage burner with its acoustic cover, and the 680 is the smallest boiler that it has been approved for.  As a result I am under-firing the 680 considerably, but with no loss in efficiency.  Combustion has actually tested out at 83% on lo fire.   Keep in mind that on an atmospheric, low fire often has a reduction in efficiency, but perhaps not always.  The manufacturers and the rating agencies have not information on the matter so you'll have to rely on the experience of the pros and what they have actually tested in the field.



Another difference between the boilers that may be of interest is the water content.  The WM 580, when running steam has a water content of 44.5 gal.  The Peerless 62-12 has a water content of 23.2 gal. when running steam.



JIK,



If you have not already seen the thread, there is a LOT of information regarding my replacement project.  The actual replacement project is at http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/143629/New-Boiler-at-the-Best-Mansion

The earlier thread, dealing with repairs and problems with this heating system is at http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/131216/The-Best-Heating-System  

Another short thread regarind the original Dunham system is at http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/143755/L-P-Best-Res-and-Garage-Vacuo-Vapor-System

I would be happy to visit with you off line regarding the project if you wish.

Hap_Hazzard

Thanks, Dave

That makes things clearer. Good point about the flue losses in atmospherics. I know I'm not going with another atmospheric when it's time to replace my boiler--probably not going with a Peerless either.



I think your experience with the Best Mansion is very relevant here. He's lucky in that he has a lot more headroom to work with in that basement, but I think he should still go with a drop header like yours.



Just in case anybody is interested in what this house looks like, I was googling around to see if there were any pictures online, since I hadn't seen it in, oh, probably 30 years or so, and I found some here. Pretty neat, huh?

Dave in QCA

More Interesting than the Boiler Room!

Hap,

Thanks for posting that link!  A truly amazing piece of architecture and craftsmanship!  It even made its way into the HABS files! (Historic American Buildings Survey) 

As interested as I am in the steam heat and other systems in antique buildings, for me, it is the whole building that I am actually interested in, so thank you for posting that link! 

Hap_Hazzard

As great as it is...

that house is, as JIK said, just one example of Vivian's work. He isn't as well known as William Henry Miller, with whom he apprenticed, but he definitely left his mark on Ithaca and the Cornell campus.

JIK

Dave, thanks for the photos link of my 306 property; had no idea it was in a historic registry. I have some photos of other portions inside (there are so many wings and suites

and it is much bigger than it appears from the outside.)

I would absolutely appreciate connecting offline .



When I bought the building, it was in an advanced state of disrepair.

Right now, I need to install a new boiler and get the main heating system back on line as soon as possible for a number of critical reasons.



I am actually heating the building with a combination of pellet stove heat and many localized electric space heaters right now!



It is like a magical unicorn, because with all the huge old windows and un-insulated walls, it should be much colder and hold heat much less effectively than it is.

Especially given that the wind chill is at around zero tonight, for instance.



I bought the building for a very low purchase price, and have been sinking money into it ever since, ha-ha.



Provided I can get the boiler in and operational by late March, I have two prospective tenants interested in immediate occupancy in two portions, and this will open the credit banking vault so I can continue with extensive restoration and hold the property long-term, possibly passing it along to my daughter to steward eventually, who is even more sentimentally attached than I am.



They just don't build them like this anymore.



The sole heating/ boiler guy I could find after months of searching locally recommended I post on this forum, and boy what a great suggestion.



He is also addicted to retiring and caring for old buildings, and is coming tomorrow to help me figure it and swap out the old atmospheric boiler.



The options I am attempting to fathom as described here are very inspiring and timely.



Thank you all, and I have a growing sense of confidence that I can get this heating system humming again.

JIK

Thank you for your excellent posts- I'm pretty sure the boiler failed because of a buried section of return in an obscure area of the basement. The

amount and frequency of fresh water introduced to the boiler was definitely excessive, and after going through the books and forums I plan to replace this buried pipe in a more effective way when I replace the sad old return lines.



By the time I purchased the property, the boiler was already old, rusty and alas atmospheric which I had hoped to get away from with the replacement I must choose very very soon.



I'm going to have the five story massive chimney professionally inspected this week to see what condition it is in.

I also want to look at any potential nearby wall area I might be able to utilize for venting.



From my thus far admittedly limited understanding of these excellent posts, I am heartened that there may be a more efficient option than the existing system, and I really like the Weil 580 suggestion and am trying to fathom the possible lo-hi-lo option as you touched upon for the installation.



Thanks again.

JIK

Is the Weil- McLain H- 580- S boiler pictured in the ecomfort.com link below the correct model for my

Crown- C-247 replacement? Is around $4700 a good price on this unit?



http://ecomfort.com/80-series-445-gph-639000-btu-steam-boiler-ng-oil-83-eff-up-to-2000-ft-altitude-87843.html



The sales page indicates that the burner is sold separately, and I was wondering if you had a recommendation as generally indicated in a previous post as to a specific and especially effective, efficient model?



I do have an eager and fairly competent local boiler installer/ master city plumber who talks to me and not down to me about these issues. He is clearing his schedule to assist me over the next several weeks.



He would like to, and is up for giving me a hand installing this boiler with the lo-hi-lo option, and is also eager to mine the expert feedback heatinghelp affords to better guide the way to a superior functioning install.



I am having a chimney inspection done, and taking some photos of the set-up, outer/ inner walls, near- boiler piping etc.which I will post later today.



Thanks again for your excellent input.

Hap_Hazzard

That's the one Steamhead recommends.

We tend to take his recommendations to heart. He's as good as they get in this business.



As for price, we aren't allowed to discuss pricing here. You might want to ask Weil-McLain for a list of dealers in your area and go down the list and see what they can do for you. If you show them a few pictures and mention the historical significance of the building, they might be more motivated to pay you a visit.



Frank also suggested looking for a two-stage burner, like Dave's Riello. That will save you beaucoup bucks in the years ahead. Definitely take Dave up on his offer to contact him. He's just finished a very similar project and I'm sure he'll have some great advice. (He can also discuss what he knows about pricing offline.)



It's good to see a piece of architectural history under the stewardship of someone who respects and appreciates it as much as you do. I hope you'll keep us updated as things progress and reach out for advice whenever you need it or just want a second opinion.

JIK

How has the next generation Midco LoNox Radial Flame "5 to 1 mod burner with no burner roar" worked out with the 580 and/ or 680?

Also, what is the cost relative to the Rielle or the Power Flame variety?

Any problems with the install or subsequent performance?



It is decision time on the boiler purchase for the Williams Mansion replacement.

I agree; Steamhead's posts are consistently top notch; my choice will be either the 580 or the 680, and I want to order in the next few days.



Regarding power consumption, noise in the high end fireplace office space directly above the basement boiler room, and balancing the size of the unit (the 580 suits the current total EDR of 1550 best, while the 680 would allow for some expansion I may consider, such as two 12 x 20 porches one above the other I fantasize about enclosing someday.)



Dave mentioned he chose the 680 because of these sorts of issues, and especially because he could fire the unit with the Riello 2 stage burner with its acoustic cover satisfying less btus needed now, expansion of additional radiators later, quietude for the occupants, and superior energy conservation.



He considered the 580, but had issues pairing a similarly appropriate power burner unit to that model. Fascinating that our issues are similar. Since I will (hopefully) only be replacing this unit once in a very long time,



How has the Midco LoNox Radial Flame model 5 to 1 mod burner with no burner roar worked out with the 580 and/ or 680? The one where the blower motor is an ECM so electrical usage is a fraction of typical power burners?

Steamhead

You need to talk to "The Steam Whisperer"

a.k.a. Dave Bunnell- he's closer to that Midco burner than I am. I will say that I saw it firing in Midco's lab when I was there last summer, and am duly impressed.

Hap_Hazzard

The other Dave

Dave hasn't been around much lately--probably too busy keeping Chicago warm.



Here's a link to his profile: http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum/profile/2082928/The-Steam-Whisperer-Formerly-Boilerpro



And here's his pro page: http://www.heatinghelp.com/professional/105/The-Steam-Whisperer-Boiler-Professionals-Inc