To Flood or Not To Flood?

steamychick

Hello to all, this is my first post to this awesome site. With all of the knowledge here, thought maybe someone can give me an opinion. I have an American Standard 7BN J6 boiler heating approx. 3100 sq. ft. (correction-WAS heating). Started having trouble about 2 months ago with the AWF. I replaced that and things seemed to be working better. Now having problems with radiators working/not working. Checked chimney for steam because it's really cold here, and sure does look like we have a new pope. So today we decided to flood the boiler to check for hole/crack. After taking cover off front of boiler and removing burners we tried to look up inside with a hand mirror and took a picture while we're waiting for boiler to cool down the whole way. Don't know if anyone can tell anything by the picture, but thought it might be worth a try before we flood. Also, posting picture of near boiler piping, etc. for some constructive critiquing. Thanks!! P.S.- Also found a sizable steam leak at the top of return(?) sightglass gasket.

Charlie from wmass

Not the worst near boiler piping

It looks like there are several burners removed. Did you do that to take photos or are they plugged off? The white marks make me think you have a leak. Flooding is all that you can do to know for sure. If you can flood it and drain it safely you should to confirm. Where are you located? If you need a professionel to install the new one check the "find a contractor " section.

Hap_Hazzard

How much water are you using?

That doesn't look good, but unless you're going through a lot of water, I'd try to get through the season on it and get a new boiler when you have time to shop around and get something you'll be happy with for the next 30 years. I don't think the leak is related to the problems you mentioned.



For future reference, a water feeder should never activate under normal use. It's not there to maintain the water level; that's your job. If you're not paying enough attention to your boiler to notice a low water condition before the LWCO kicks in, you're neglecting it. The water feeder is just there so you won't lose heat if your return springs a leak and your pipes won't freeze.

JStar

Steam

The left sections look like a leak to me. Have you flooded the boiler while waiting for a response.

Dave in QCA

It Is Cracked Open

I can see in one of your photos, that there is a crack or split at the top corner of one of the sections.  The side is warping away and there is an obvious gap where the metal has separated.   Not too much point in flooding, you already know what you got.



I have reposted the image with an arrow pointing to the hole.

steamychick

Boiler is toast

Sorry that I couldn't answer questions last night. Couldn't log in for some reason but all taken care of now (Thanks Dan!). Yes, the burners were removed for the pictures. I am located in south-central PA. I went ahead and carefully flooded boiler yesterday, and sure enough, leaking at the top. I think we should be able to limp along for awhile (hopefully). Now I guess the search is on for a replacement. I have done the calculations on boiler load and it seems to me that what we had is a little too small for what we need. When I get home from work today, maybe I will post my calculations if anyone is interested in seeing if they are correct? Also debating= Burnham or W-McL?

nicholas bonham-carter

measuring the radiation

don't forget that the replacement boiler must be sized to the total radiation of all your radiators and piping [edr], and not to what was there before.

there are several tables somewhere here which you can use to calculate the total.

as it is so late in the winter, maybe you can use some sort of stop-leak to give a few more weeks out of the boiler, so you can take your time with this in the summer.

reducing the pressure would help as well, so now maybe the time to fix any lack of main venting, and get a vaporstat.

your present boiler is probably 40 years old?--nbc

steamychick

some questions

nbc- by reducing pressure do you mean at the pressuretrol as well? Mine is set at .5/1. Or are you refering to just the main vent? I have a main vent, but I also think that it is too small for the air flow I need to move. I have a Hoffman 75, but with a 3"x 31' main, I think I need to add 2-Gorton 2's. Also- would stop leak harm the other areas of the system?

steamychick

40-ish

I almost forgot- yes, my boiler is 40 something years old. I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later. My ignorance of steam heat when I bought this old house 10 years ago most certainly did not help matters.

JStar

Steam

Of course, we'd all be interested in any information that you've gathered so far.



I am not a big fan of the WM products or their customer service. Burnham is a bit better on both ends. The real decision should be made with finding the closest matching size available.

steamychick

calculations

Thanks for taking a look at my calculations, it just feels better having more input   First things first= measured rads/counted fins/calculated EDR to be 541. With pick-up factor-719.53. So, if i'm correct the btu's would be 172,560. Or, do you calculate with-out the pick-up factor? If so, the btu's would be 129,840. My current boiler (R.I.P.) says input 210,000/output 168,000.

JStar

EDR

I'm very aggressive with my sizing. The right size = less fuel burned. If all of the piping is insulated, I'll only add 15% pick up. If not, add 30%. So...



Insulated, I'd choose a boiler with an input of around 175,000

Uninsulated, 200,000.



Here on The Wall, we're big proponents of the wet based / power burner arrangement to gain 85-87% efficiencies with steam. Throw in a lot of proper venting and Vaporstat, and your broken boiler could be a blessing in disguise. A new boiler, properly installed will help to bring your energy usage down, and keep the house comfortable.

steamychick

JStar

JStar- please excuse my ignorance as i'm relatively new to all of this, but i'm not sure what you mean by the wet based/power burner arrangement. But i do know enough to know that 85-87% effic. for steam would be excellent! If you wouldn't mind explaining?...

JStar

Boilers

I knew that would get your attention!



The pictures below show 1) an atmospheric boiler (82%) and 2) a wet based boiler with a power burner (87%).



The advantage of the latter is the burner flame being completely surrounded by cast iron and water, whereas the atmospheric boilers operate like a pot on the stove, heating the basement floor and surrounding area, too. The power burner also allows far superior adjustment of the combustion process.

steamychick

Hap_Hazzard

I must confess to being neglectful of my system out of sheer ignorance of how it worked. Of course, like an idiot, I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it because it seemed to be heating o.k., and I always had forced hot air anywhere that I lived. So, occasionaly I would go downstairs and stand and marvel at the jungle gym of pipng, having no real grasp of what I was looking at. When things started to go wrong, I did some research, bought some of Dan's books, started to think like steam and was instantly fascinated. What strikes me about what you wrote, is that I replaced the water feeder because it quit working and the boiler started to run dry. I was so concerned with getting water to the boiler that I wasn't thinking about the LWCO not working. The thing is, my water bill has always been more or less the same, even as recent as last month. So, is it possible to have had a cracked boiler for the 10 years that I've owned the house and not noticed until the LWCO and water feeder failed? Or is it more probable that I may have a leak in a return or something else which caused the downward spiral? I know all of this is too late for my current boiler, but I'd really like to learn from my mistakes so as not to repeat them.

steamychick

wow

wow! porsche vs. honda! wet based looks expensive, so naturally I want it. Seriously though, does the wet based utilize the same near boiler piping that the atmospheric does? Maybe that's a dumb question, but I can't tell from picture, and I know nothing about wet based. Certainly makes a hell of a lot of sense to me to not waste heat on the basement floor, etc. Another possibly dumb question- is the blue unit attached to the boiler the power burner?

ChrisJ

Weil-Mclain vs Burnham

I just wanted to comment on this.  As a homeowner, Burnham refused to talk to me even though I had one of their products and wanted to replace some things.  Then, when I wanted to talk to them regarding purchashing a new boiler which I was going to install my self, again they refused to talk to me.



Weil-Mclain on the other hand had absolutely no problem talking to me about a future purchase.  They answered all questions I had on the phone and email.  Then after I installed the boiler I had a minor issue which again, they were happy to help via email and phone and the issue was solved immediately.





So, from a homeowners point of view Burnhams sales and support are non-exsistent while WM is completely helpful.  Sorry Joe.    If a pro is installing it than this probably won't matter to you.



While I do agree some things Burnham supplies are better such as their jacket is a bit nicer and they supply a better pressuretrol but I don't think their blocks are any better and thats the meat and potatoes.  Infact Weil-Mclain has 3" supply tappings where burnham only does 2".  I feel the whole steel push nipple vs gasket thing is a moot point as rarely do the gaskets fail on steam boilers, its always the entire block.  I believe the Burnham independence series uses a stepped gas valve so startup is nicer.  But, I kind of like how my WM EG series sounds like an inferno when it fires up, sounds like it means business!



You can see the rotted Burnham I tore out and replaced with a Weil-Mclain in the pictures link below in my signature.

steamychick

Burnham vs. WM

Is it possible that as a manufacturer Burnham didn't want to deal with you because you are the homeowner and they don't want to be liable to you? I'm just wondering because I know that in my business, wholesalers/manufacturers almost never want to deal directly with the end user. They usually want you to go through a retailer/distributor. That being said, I'm not in the plumbing/HVAC business so maybe it's different. Although usually most companies have some kind of customer support or "tech" assistance. I'm not too keen on giving business to a company with a crappy attitude towards the people who keep them in business. They didn't have to take your order, but they could have at least given you the info. you wanted and maybe told you where to purchase,etc.

I know what you mean about an inferno. I'm going to miss that about my old boiler. Kind of hope my new one will do the same.

Hap_Hazzard

Things to pay attention to.

You seem very perceptive and motivated, so I'm sure you'll figure this out for yourself as you read through the old posts here, but the two most important things to pay attention to are water level and pressure.



Some of the pros on this site like to post pictures of old, rotted out boilers they've replaced. This is very informative. It tells you what to avoid and what to look out for. One of the contributing factors most frequently pointed out is a fluctuating water line. It's no coincidence that that's something we kind of obsess over here.



I think it's unlikely that the boiler has been cracked for ten years. That's the kind of thing that tends to snowball in a hurry. It is likely that various other things--condensate leaks, faulty valves and vents, etc.--have been causing the system to lose water over time, and if you were counting on the water feeder to replace the lost water, that would cause a major fluctuation in the water level. The water level has to drop about four or five inches before a LWCO activates the water feeder. Most of us top up our boilers every week when we flush out our glass gauges or mechanical LWCOs or what-not, and if we notice we've lost a significant amount of water we get worried. This keeps the water level within about a half inch of where it should be.



It sounds like you've come to the realization that I came to a couple of years ago when my wet return sprung a leak on a cold November morning and I got religion about maintaining my heating system: sure, I have better things to do than pay attention to my heating system, but I can do all those things AND take care of my heating system. It doesn't take a lot of time, just diligence, and it generally takes less time to prevent emergencies than to deal with them.



I'm sorry your awakening has come at a higher cost than mine, but I'm glad you've joined us, and there is a silver lining. As someone has already mentioned, there are boilers available today that are much more efficient than the ones they made 40 years ago, so you have an opportunity to get the latest and greatest, and now that you've found this site you'll be able to find a qualified pro to install it, and get everything right.



Welcome aboard!

ChrisJ

Yep

That is exactly the reason.



The problem I had was I live in a town where I am allowed to install my own boiler with appropriate permits which I had in hand at the time. After installation it was inspected and approved.



So from my point of view, I did everything legal and by the book and they still refused to talk to me because I'm not a distributor.



The point of my post was if you are doing the installation your self like I did, you want to consider this. Of course, I could have bought an IN6 from the same distributor I bought my EG-45 from but the fact WM was willing to work with me was enough to change my mind and never look back. Honestly, if your going with a professional to install the boiler I would go with whatever brand he recommends. I don't think theres much difference as far as quality and you want him to install what he is used to dealing with.



Also, Joe who recommended Burnham before is probably the only guy in NJ I'd ever let touch my steam system. if Joe was installing a boiler for me, I'd 100% let him install a Burnham if thats what he wanted to do.



Hopefully that makes sense. Sometimes I seem to confuse people and I'm trying to work on that.

JStar

Steam

Yea, the blue part is the burner. All of the piping is the same for either model. And, surprisingly, the more efficient boiler is only more expensive by a few hundred dollars. It's worth it! I guarantee all of my work to reduce energy usage, and increase comfort. This method of installation makes that claim a lot easier to boast.

JStar

WM

Every time I've ever called WM, I've had tech support reuse to elaborate on their answers or offer anything useful. My other partner used to work at a supply house and dealt with them daily. He expresses the same sentiment.

steamychick

a toast to awakenings!

high cost awakenings seem to be my thing as of late.   Thanks for the welcome! I kind of pity the pro that replaces my boiler. After learning so much, how can I not hover when they are working? I hate when people hover when i'm trying to work.

Hap_Hazzard

To hover or not to hover.

When I hire someone to work in my house, I find a good conversation beforehand makes me feel more comfortable about leaving them alone. Most people who feel confident in their knowledge and take pride in their work are more than happy to talk about it, and it helps them to understand that your attention has more to do with being interested in what they're doing than any lack of trust.



There have been a lot of cases where people have come here after a new installation and shared the results, and it would have been a good thing if those people had discussed the work beforehand. I think you should be prepared to go through the Installation and Operations Manual (IOM) that comes with your new boiler and make sure he agrees to pipe it to the manufacturer's specification at minimum, and if he's willing to go beyond that, discuss how much extra you'd be willing to pay for that.



Show him the books you ordered. If he recognizes them or their author, that's a good sign. There are a lot of people out there who have taken some of Dan's courses yet, for one reason or another, aren't listed in the "Find a Contractor" section.



It's an unfortunate fact that there are a lot of people out there doing boiler installations that really don't know what they're doing, and while we never want to assume the worst about anyone, you have every right to know who you're dealing with and make your expectations clear to them. If the people you're dealing with don't seem willing to talk to you, you might want to think about working with somebody else.

steamychick

hovering

Funny you should mention the IOM. I was already looking at them on manufac.'s websites. My hovering is definately more to do with being interested in knowledge being put into practice, and not about trust. If I don't trust you, you'll never make it past my basement door. I'm of the "do it right, or don't do it at all" variety. (which, ironically, is probably why my boiler is a goner. I didn't know at all how to do it right, so I didn't do it at all.) I'm trying to do as many diagnostics as I can now, so I'm aware of what issues I have before I call someone in. Hopefully that will lead to saving time for someone else, and saving money for me. At the very least, I'm getting way more knowledgable about how all of this works. I'm finding that there is a lot to learn. This may be the start of an obsession...

steamychick

boiler sizing

In talking about boiler sizing, I neglected to mention that the house I'm heating is a stick built 1895 house with virtually no insulation. It also has all the original single pane windows except on the 3rd floor, which was finished at some point and small replacement windows were installed. I do have storm windows on all non-replacements. Reasons for non-replacement are 1) cost (lots of windows!), and 2) all windows have either original leaded glass tops or stained glass windows. (Did research on original owners and found out J. Horace Rudy was somewhat famous stained glass maker. Would be a crime to remove them! Suppose I'm willing to pay more in fuel bills for the sake of preservation.) It seems like that should probably be taken into account as pertaining to a heat loss aspect?

ChrisJ

Say no to hovering

I've had few people work in my house so far but the last guy was the one that tore the brick chimney down almost all alone.  One of the best guys I've ever met honestly and all I did was stayed out of his way and offered him food and drink occasionally.



We also tried to do what we could to protect floors and stuff before he got there so he wouldn't have to.  He seemed very happy about that as well, not sure how pros feel about customers doing this, but it was what I would have wanted customers to do for me, so I did it.

Charlie from wmass

Hovering customers

I never have an issue with the hovering customer, unless they are telling me how to do my work. I find many people who are familiar with heating help are hovers as they are knowledge seekers. So hover causually and bring coffee. If a person is comfortable in their skills they do not have an issue with someone watching them work. JMHO

steamychick

not hovering

I promise not to hover. Definatley don't want to get in the way, just wanted to watch the magic happen. (Sorry ChrisJ, steam boilers are way more interesting to watch than removing bricks) ;)  Also, I would think that pros wouldn't have a problem with "site prep". I know I wouldn't! Time being money and all that.

ChrisJ

I disagree!

I installed my own steam boiler but I was in no way going to touch that 150 year old chimney. 

Honestly I was amazed at how clean of a job he was able to do.  You'd expect a sooty disaster, nothing of the sort! 



Charlie says he doesn't mind customers that watch as long as they don't tell him how to do his job, so I guess its ok.   

steamychick

steam vs. bricks

I didn't say it's not amazing, just not quite as interesting to me to watch. In fairness, I have neither installed my own boiler or torn down a chimney. (although, I will be re-pointing in the near future, so maybe my view will change). lol

ChrisJ

Ah

I understand.

Dave in QCA

Replacement windows =

A plastic window that cannot be repaired.  It will warp, crack, etc., and in 10-15 years, you have to replace them.  Thus the name, "replacement windows". 

You are lucky you have not gone down that road!  There is a ton of information regarding the efficiency of wooden windows that have been repaired, weatherstipped, and have a good storm window.   About the same efficiency as the thermal replacment variety, but they last, and they look right.   If you want more information, here are a few links. 

http://broadwaydistrict.org/Windows.htm 

http://www.nps.gov/history/hps/tps/briefs/brief09.htm#Window Replacement

ChrisJ

replacement windows

Dave, I'm assuming this isn't true for something like the Anderson 400 series replacement windows?

steamychick

casual hovering

Coffee it is! Only problem with casual hovering may be that I think my brain may work very similar to my boiler. Once I get full of info, questions start to spill out-(why does this need to go there, can we do a drop header, why is the sky blue,...). That probably gets old fast. I'm not questioning someone's ability, I just like to put all the info in my head together in real life application. Not to mention that a woman hovering around that says she's interested in steam heat would possibly be puzzling, as there doesn't seem to be too many women in the business. Nothing implied there, just saying.

Dave in QCA

An Good Exception

Chris, yes you are correct in your assumption.  I was referring to the garden variety of vinyl replacment windows that are mass marketed by an industry that has convinced everyone that they need new windows.  

IThe Anderson 400 is a VERY high quality wooden window that is similar or exactly the same in appearance as the original, and that has good weatherstipping systems, etc.   I can't see whether this window  uses sealed double glazed panels, which are troublesome over time because of the failure rate of the seals... Sooner or later they almost all fail and the glass fogs over with nothing you can do but have new glass put it. 

steamychick

windows

Excellent articles Dave! Thanks! I know this is about windows, but I consider it part of my steam heating system, as I want to obviously keep in the heat that my system makes. Already took entire windows in 1 room out, scaped & repainted, re-glazed, replaced ropes,etc. The room is definatley retaining heat better than all the rest! More rooms to come in near future. What I didn't know, is all of the stuff about single pane/storm windows vs. replacements, and original reasons for them to be where they are, etc. I should have figured, as back then, money seemed secondary to craftsmanship. Rather unlike now days. Finally! Something in my favor!!

Charlie from wmass

I actually understand completely

I have four sisters and Da tried to get everyone to pick up the wrenches and they all said no thanks. So we have a Lawyer, two nurses and a social worker instead.

The knowledge you gain here from Dan's writing can be the difference between hiring a person who simply does their job well and someone you need to redo their work for them.

steamychick

maybe not a complete no thanks

The 2 nurses in the family may not be so far from what your Da was trying for. Just organic piping , and walking combustion chambers instead.

Charlie from wmass

Point taken

lol

Hap_Hazzard

Thanks for explaining this.

This is what I meant when I said there are more efficient boilers available today. The atmospheric, sectional boiler hasn't changed a lot in the last 40 years, so it's almost a waste to replace it with another of the same type, but these wet-based boilers are another story, and the power burners offer better combustion control. When I see some of the systems you guys are installing for your customers it's a little disappointing to think I might be stuck with my venerable Peerless for another ten years.