What controls this:

icesailor

A plumber friend recommended me to this guy who has a problem.

He bought this house that is maybe 20 years old with a very nice radiant system that is 20 years old. The house was owned and built by someone from NJ. His crew installed the system in the whole house and probably did the plumbing too. Its a quality job. It has a Smith 6 section package boiler. It has three zones of radiant, the fully finished basement, the first floor and the second floor plus the indirect. It appears to be a staple up job. The house is HUGE with a 2 story front hall and upstairs bedrooms the same.

I doubt that the house was ever lived in until the new owner bought it. He covered all the floors with wall to wall carpet. He now complains that the house is cold in parts and hot in others. The owner has taken it upon himself to try to fix it. Without knowing what he is doing. He called called someone and they told him he needed new thermostats. So he replaced them. Nothing changed. There are at least 12 thermostats. There are panels in rooms with the supply and return manifolds. It had 2 wire Wirsbo zone valves.  How do they control the zone circulators? They run all the time. Many heads seem to be failed but the owner replaced some of them. There are zones that are hot/warm all the time. The 4-way is broken. So, the owner hired some guy who told him he needed a new boiler. He dropped off the boiler, demanded payment, and left for Florida and won't be back until May.

I told the owner that there was nothing wrong with the boiler and what will he say if his problems don't go away when the boiler is changed? It has a new Tekmar 360 control that doesn't seem to do much.

I'm just trying to get a handle on it. I don't think it is fixable but I am being paid to give suggestions and ideas.

Charlie from wmass

It may be set for constant circulation

It looks like it is a bit over complicated. I would say the 4 way valve needs addressed.

icesailor

4 Way Circulation:

The owner bought a new brass 4-way. Does it get powered from the Tekmar?

I hadn't thought about constant circulation.

That big grey box on the wall has 4 ice cube relays in it but only three are used. The ZC501 only runs the pump for the indirect.

That makes sense. The Wirsbo zone valves control the zones.

No wiring diagrams or paperwork there. That makes it fun.

hot_rod

carpet is a red flag!

is the system was not designed for carpet and pad, that can really put a "damper' on the floor output.



Any way to find the original load and design? If not run some load calcs and see if the floor can cover the load. Carpet and pad can easily add up to an R-2 insulation over the radiant surface.

icesailor

Carpets

Yeah, I know about carpet. Its a no-no. From what I understand from others, the original owner is disagreeable. There are no plans that the new owner is aware of.

The system is of the age where there were some things that weren't allowed for with heating systems. Like recessed ceiling lights in exposed and ventilated ceilings. There are spaces that today, would have had some form of supplemental heat. Like the kitchen with little floor area and a big island counter. A breakfast room that faces the South East with an exposed roof, three exposed walls, a partial roof, three outside doors, and lots of windows.

It has a lot of problems. There is a lot of figure out time. I don't want that to be uncompensated time. I'm not the tooth fairy. Maybe PEX Supply will come change the 4-way valve. I have other paying projects to finish.

Charlie from wmass

fixing flubbed up systems

requires appropriate compensation. In other words If they want miracles performed they need to pay you for all your time.

Plumdog_2

good luck with it

You can't just "fix" it. I get challenged with stuff that looks like that too. It was designed by a supply-house salesman making a commission on parts sales, (not that anything is wrong with that) probably installed by somebodies pal, so they could save some money. Yes, the Tekmar is supposed to mix the supply temp in accordance with Outside Temp. It may still work, maybe the motor on the four-way is bad. You could pull off the motor and manually adjust it. All those little Wirsbo actuators would have to be tested. You could open each loop manually, then turn the four-way to "pretty hot" and check back in a day or two. It probably should have had two temps for the radiant,  lower for the concrete slab and (much) higher for the staple-up. They got confused when wiring it. It would take considerable time to straighten it out, and alot of the time would be diagnostic and re-control. 

Plumdog_2

on second thought

You can fix it. Just go thru item by item and see what doesn't work. The Tekmar is the heart of it...it has to be hooked up right. The gray box is zone (pump) control. 

Mark Eatherton

Rats nest of problems...

The first glaring thing to me is the lack of insulation in the floor joist bays... Contrary to popular belief, heat doesn't rise.



The 4 way probably either isn't wired right, or the ESBE motor is dead or disengaged.



The Swiss Cheese ceiling effect is going to be impossible to correct. IN filtration of cold air is the one situation that will cause the tail to wag the dog. This causes a major EX filtration of his money, in the form of energy costs.



If it were me, I'd start with a blower door test. Then I'd directly address the insulation he's placed on TOP of the floor (thick cushioning pad and carpet) and then address the lack of insulation BELOW the carpet.



As far as control is concerned, those valve operators are just a heat motored valve with end switches. There has to be a thermostat somewhere in the zone to initiate a call for them to operate. Their end switches could/should be going back down to the Mech. Rm to start the heat source and appropriate circulator etc. It is not a good idea to dead head even a small pump.... The amount of mechanical energy placed into a high head circulators volute during dead heading causes the fluid temperatures within the pump to go up to around 250 degrees F. It takes a while to get it there (250F) but it shouldn't be there and can create havoc in the right conditions.



Interesting configuration with the side arm on the boiler primary loop. Saved the cost of an extra pump doing that.



You've definitely got your work cut out for you, but I'd find an IR camera and show him whats going on with the lack of insulation.



Let me guess. Basement rooms over heating, and main floor rooms with high ceilings and high glazing ratios are impossible to heat...



I get that call at least once a year. and it usually contains the sentence from the homeowner of "But heat rises doesn't it? My contractor said that insulation in the floor wasn't necessary because heat rises..." OK, then, have your contractor re-write the laws of thermal dynamics, and everything will be just fine.... No charge for this consultation, and please, may I have my business card back??



There ought to be a law, I'm tellin' ya... Oh wait, there IS a law (insulation below radiant heat sources) . We just need to enforce it.



If I were you, I wouldn't walk, but I'd make darned sure this guy knows of all the potential problems, and how many of those you can actually address, and which ones (infiltration) you can't. The BEST heat delivery system in the world MIGHT be possible of delivering good human comfort, but I would NOT want to be involved on the energy input cost side...





Been there, done that and have lawyers bills to prove it... C.Y.A.



ME

icesailor

Problems:

You and I have both identified the problems.  The 4-way doesn't work. The owner bought a replacement. PEX Supply might install it?

Heat actuated valves? How do they work? The Wirsbo zone valve heads just have two wires connected to them. It is a quality job. The electrician took strips of unsplit Romex wire cover, marked the cover with the thermostat location and stapled it to the stud. So you always know what zone you are working on (I guess) but constant circulation must be what runs it because of the Tekmar 360. It has WWS.

Those old systems had problems designed into them that can't be fixed.

I usually can date things by inspection stickers or manufacturers plates. There is no rating plate on the smith boiler even though all the jackets are there. Not a model number, serial number or a rating plate. The guy who sold and delivered the boiler said it isn't made anymore. I don't even know if they are similarly rated. The AHJ usually puts a sticker with a date on the boiler for the Back-flow. He always put them on the water heater tank. There are none. If the permit hadn't been finished out, they can't get a CO. They won't pass papers unless the building permit is closed out.

My only function is to tell him what is wrong. And mainly, to not be disappointed when the new boiler is installed and the problems don't stop.

Replacing the 4-way isn't going to fix it.

I've never seen a radiant floor system that has 8' ceilings and 12' ceilings, mixed that could be balanced. Though I'm sure that they are out there. Just not old ones. Back when this house was probably built, there was a designer that spec'ed electric radiant in the ceilings. They never worked, especially in the winter.

Do yo know of any "suggested" wiring diagrams for something like this?

The worst part of these systems is knowing how they work, what they are supposed to do, and that someone that knows absolutely nothing, comes along and absolutely ruins them. The carpet on the floors ruined this one. I'm sure that the carpet salesperson and installer never said a word about the problems that could come up. As long as they made the sale and install. Then, someone else can try to fix it and get the blame for not being able to correct it.

I only want to know for my own personal knowledge base.

STEVEusaPA

Some thoughts

Did you happen to see these 2 PDFs?

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/images/_literature/360_a_06.pdf

http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/images/_literature/360_d_06.pdf

Might help

The Tekmar should be doing almost everything, especially the mixing valve. There's a tedious checkout you can do on the Tekmar ( it's in the manual) which may help.



Maybe the Tekmar just isn't set up correctly by the original installer, and the sensors are in the wrong spot. For multiple zones there should be another zone control wired properly to the Tekmar



One thing I noticed with the Tekmar, when you have boiler protection set, something odd (to me) happens with the mixing stations. To 'protect' the boiler it will close 4 way, or stops injection mixing--which its suppose to do. But it seems to, I can't explain it, come out of this in a way that doesn't seem logical, & causes performance problems. Maybe someone else experienced this and can explain it better.

Any chance you can scroll thru the Tekmar menu and post the settings?

pipeking

THE TEKMAR

 SHOULKD CONTROL EVERYTHING. BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS ORIGINAL WITH THE SYSTEM. I THINK THE GRAY BOX WAS THE ORIGINAL CONTROL. TO ME WITH OUT THE TEKMAR IT SEEMS PRETTY SIMPLE, BUT I DON'T SEE Y THEY USED A SIDE ARM FOR THE RADIANT, WAS IT CUZ OF GLYCOL?

Mark Eatherton

FYLI (for your learning information)

I just noticed, the photo of the manifolds, if the arrows on the piping reflect what is actually going on, is piped bass ackwards. the telestats are always supposed to be on the return manifold. Like a Honeywell zone valve, they close off against flow. If they close off with flow, as the needle approaches the seat, the flow will suck the needle in, causing a thumping or banging noise.



As for how the telestat heat motors work, exactly like the Taco heat motor (the gold colored mainstay). There is a heating coil wrapped around the metal (usually copper) cylinder that contains a parafin (wax) phase change compound. As the vessel is heated, the wax melts, and expands. It is this expansion that causes the valve to open, and close the end switch to send a call signal to the rest of the logic for heat, pumps etc. They are fairly slow (3 to 5 minutes depending) in reacting, and they also have a fairly high amperage draw compared to their conventional motorized compadres.



As it pertains to the 4 way and motor, if the valve body/operator is seized, you may have other issues. What is shown is a cast iron valve body, which in a good, tight closed loop system should not have any "issues". If they used non barrier tubing, it is most probably trashed. Also, based on the bluish green stains on the manifold, it appears to have antifreeze in the fluid. Also, the side arm IS being used to isolate the boiler fluid from the system fluid, possibly indicating other potential (O2 barrier) issues. If the pH of this fluid is not maintained, corrosion will be an ongoing issue. Unless it is absolutely necessary, I'd dump the glycol, throw corrosion inhibitors in and let it run.



That particular operator (ESBE) can be disengaged by pushing in on the large round black knob , and then turned to whatever position you want or need. If this is done, the motor may be working, but due to the clutch being disconnected, no valve actuation is possible. If the valve attempts to cycle completely from open to close, the knob should pop back into the pawl that causes the valve stem to turn when the motor turns, but I have seen it go both ways.



You also have to check for voltage at the terminals going to the valve motor. may not be the valve motor, but could be the controller, which may have lost the power signal for the output.



Generally speaking, this is a fairly simple control. 1 input (space heat) and associated outputs. DHW is accomplished via a priority relay set up, and a word of caution here. This is NOT a limited priority. If it calls, and the DHW pump fails, it WILL lock the space heating call out until the DHW call is satisfied. I have seen some major damage occur in this scenario... Follow the drawing...



As Mr Whitbeck has pointed out, the drawings are readily available, and should be field verified as to correctness. The input on the heat side requires a voltage input to activate that portion of the logic. It is not a dry contact input. Requires VOLTAGE be applied to those contacts.



Good luck. I do hope you are being properly compensated for your efforts. This is above and beyond a "FREE" estimate scope. Besides, NOTHING is free... other than this soap box ;-)



ME

pipeking

HEAT HEAT ACTUATOR VALVES

  thay r usually put on the supply for 2 resons,1 the installation sheet that comes with a taco heat actuatted valve shows it on the supply, and 2, if it was on the return u can have heat migrate into that zone. they don't make flow checkes for the supply manifold. now as for the chatter coming from the valve that only happens if the vavle is put in backwards. weather it is put on the supply or return u still have the presure put on the same part of the valve seat, as seen in diagrams...

pipeking

MANIFOLD VALVES

 in the pic only have 2 wires, so the do not have end switches. i don't think the pumps r wired for constent circ cuz that would not b good for them with no diff. bypass. i would think that the pumps r jumped out on the zone control so when a thermistat calls it closes its 2 circuts for that zone,(1,2,3,4) valve actuator and pump. so the pump is dead ended for about 2-4 min until the actuator opens, cuz its not turned on by the end switch on the actuator. its better then constent circ. and seeing how the system was build, i want to beleive that was practices. BUT OF CORSE NEVER ASSUME, CHECK THE WIRING.

Mark Eatherton

I beg to differ with you....

Please, huh, can I , can i.... (begging).



Those are the old Tour and Andersen manifolds (early Wirsbo) and the operators always went on the return side, not the supply side. How do I know this? Because I have had MORE than my share of cases where it was improperly installed, and it sounds like a truck running into the wall when it goes to close WITH flow, instead of against flow, like it was designed to do...



Your assertion may be true with another brand, but the older TA's can NOT be flowed through backwards, unless you'r really in to hearing your heating system, and its NOT a grey noise...



ME

Plumdog_2

Some I have seen...

have an additional circuit board (usually near the manifold), which takes transformer power, switches thru the thermostat to power the bank of actuators all at once, and makes an End Switch connection. There are adapter rings to mount different motors to old manifolds, being cautious to set the height properly; too low and they may break when opened fully.  

pipeking

now,now, don't beg

  your right, i miss spoke. the pipes need to be fliped.

   "NEVER ASSUME"  isn.t that what i said? whoops!!!

Mark Eatherton

No problem...

We learn from each others mistakes, and I have made that mistake (piped one backwards).... ONCE.



I had an elderly customer who's deceased husband had installed his own system (long story about how he obtained components). He piped his backwards, and every time the bedroom zone closed, WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM, it would hammer. He CONVINCED here that it was "normal" and told her not to worry about it. When he passed away, her son stayed with her during the funeral services, and when he heard the noise, he convinced her to call me to see what was wrong. As soon as I heard it, I knew exactly what it was...



She'd been living with it for 15 years..... WHAM WHAM WHAM WHAM....



Welcome to The Wall. What's your background if you don't mind? Your handle is new to me.



ME

pipeking

IM A......

   plumber, who really enjoys the heating and cooling jobs he gets. it's far and few between when i get excited about plumbing jobs, don't get me wrong there out there and love doing them. but the heating and cooling advancements r moving forward fast, and its exciting . when people think of an efficent home,or building its always in the heating and cooling, or electricity, never the plunbing, thats been hard to catch on.

nicholas bonham-carter

A challenging diagnostic problem

First you will have to find out what valve, or pump is controlled by which thermostat, and then see by jumping the controls whether the radiant can heat through the carpet and pad.

I can see at least one day with a helper (the owner?) to trace out what makes what happen.

Once you know how to control the system, you can determine whether the carpet is a problem.

This must surely be a time and materials job-mostly time. Tell the owner that he will at least heve a working diagram, from which to make more additions, and subtractions himself, under your guidance, all at $X/ hr.

Since he likes to make the repairs himself, he can then do so as you will have pointed the way.--NBC