0013 taco circulator

Paul S_3

Hey everyone....I'm having a problem with a heating coil 60 Feet above the boiler on the fourth floor of a home...the problem is that I'm not getting any flow at first I thought it wad a pressure problem and it was air bound I purged and purged no heat....its a regular hot water boiler with a taco 0013 circulator pump I'm know pump is working its flowing through indirect water heater...does anyone have any suggestions customer never had heat since it wad installed...

Paul s

Tom_133

Pressure

What is the current pressure?

SWEI

0013

Is a pretty big pump for a residential system.  Does the pump serve just this one coil?  How big is the load?

RJ_4

sizing

You need to start by checking pipe size to btu's, and TEL total equivalent length (pipe length + 50% for fittings), also press. drop through equip. When you have this you can use a pump curve ( selection chart ) to size the pump.   Remember in closed loop systems height is only considered in the cold fill pressure.  should be at least 5 psig at very top of your bldg piping.  Every 2.3 ft of height will equal 1 psig  .  In your case you need at least  26 psig plus 5psig = 31 psig. at your boiler.   In some cases relief valves need to be changed to higher press. setting.  I would get the cold fill press. up, and bleed top of system, try that first. you may need to install valves at the top of your system to get air out.

Paul S_3

pressure

Pressure is 40 psi it has a50 pound relief valve...Monday when I go back I wad gonna find head loss through that calculation and pipe size with universal hydronics formula...can anyone post a link for a taco pump curve our tell me where to find it and how can I find pressure drop of the hw coil there Is no info on it...this job is a bit larger them a normal residential job its a big brownstone in Harlem Manhattan NYC....just want other peoples perspective before I go back Monday morning....thank you all

Paul S_3

pump

Pump serves indirect water heater and hot water coil....hot water coil had no info its in a space pak 3 ton air handler

Paul s

Tom_133

Pressure

Well Paul I was hoping it was something easy like low pressure for the height of piping, but 40 PSI should be plenty! I think if you are positive the pressure gauge is correct I would venture into pump territory to see if that's your problem which is what it sounds like youre doing.

Charlie from wmass

Can you test for pressure

At the coil. Is the pump pushing towards the fan coil or is it on the return?

Paul S_3

pressure

i double checked pressure with my boiler pressure gauge tool its a a/c gauge with a few reducers/bushings i hook it up to a short hose to the boiler drain...so the pressure is definitely 40 psi....pump is on return of boiler, prv is piped right ahead of it on return and expansion is on supply header....i get absolutely no flow through coil....i will install something at the coil so i can test the pressure....there is nothing there now

paul s

SWEI

0013 curve

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/101-064.pdf

Paul S_3

thanks

thank you swei

icesailor

Coil:

Is there a float vent or something like that at the coil in the attic? I use a tire gauge on float vents in a pinch.

The coil is on the fourth floor?

The coil has a separate supply and return up and back down?

You can block the return with a valve and you have a drain above the valve so if you purge it, it purges through the supply? And the return will get hot?

If it does, do you have good flow?

Do you have any gate valves in the line there the gate might have dropped off the stem?

I always put my purges on the return. I never open up vents upstairs, I just purge from the boiler. The circulator is better on the return in spite of. With it on the supply and it not pumping, a high head like a 013 can cavitate and if the air elimination doesn't catch the bubbles, it will act like Old Faithful Geyser in Yellowstone. The bubble will expand on the way up and it is like "The Bends" for a diver. I find purging to be so effective that I don't even bother venting at air vent points unless it is a cast iron radiator or something with a large volume of air/water that needs to be vented. It doesn't take much air to stop the flow.

RJ_4

vent

One of the rules of the pipefitter   Always provide a way to vent the high points and drain the low points.   

Paul S_3

no vents

at the coil....just a bleeder....AT THE BOILER i purged that loop.....i originally had some air but then nothing i purged for a good 10 minutes straight with no air....then no heat....its like water is not moving at all.....pump is on return not supply ICE....

Paul S_3

0013

it looks like the taco 0013 circ....would definitely be able to circulate water through this loop on the pump curve.....????using estimations....monday will go back and check

Tom_133

How cold?

Its not cold enough for a frozen pipe or coil is it?

icesailor

Good Point:

Good point. I've seen that more than once.

I once had a frozen up bathroom where the air handler in the attic delivered AC temps out of the supply in January and heating temps in July. A force to be reckoned with.

That's one of the many reasons I like single loop feeds to individual zones or loops with a shutoff and drain on the return. If you can.t pull hot water through the supply to the return, the discussion has closed as to why it isn't working. An obstruction.

RJ_4

vent

Reminds me of a job years ago, AHU in attic area had no flow, installer had not installed valves on coil for venting air, we installed a saddle valve ( type used to hook humidifier to water line ) on the coil copper piping and were able to get out air stuck in the top of the coil, and get flow,   returned later in week an repiped, installing drains and high point air removal valves

icesailor

High Vents:

Just be mindful that those highly placed vents can be a real problem if you don't know about it. Auto vents or bucket vents like Taco #400's can suck air during the heating and cooling, expansion and contraction of fluids. If the caps are not tight after venting, during these cycling, the seat can become fouled and want to leak. I may put a coin vent or a can vent on a high coil, but I never go near them if I'm filling and venting. I am a firm believer in well placed purging devices on the return, purging through the boiler so I can feel hot water coming back. I can see the air coming back with the air. I also drain the systems in the same way. If you can purge the air from a system with water, you can certainly drain it with air. I even have places I drain with series looped baseboard on two floors, that would take forever to drain the little bottom end caps where compressed air will blow all the water out of the loop. I have never had a broken pipe, EVER. If you have a zone with a Flow Check like a B&G SA 1 1/4", when you open the valve to drain, the pipe still has water in it. But it doesn't break. Forget to open it, and you will have a break on the main. Why I hate IFC's on circulators. How do you know if they are there and how do you overcome them? You can with compressed air. The swirling air will pick you the water as vapor and blow it out the drain.

Paul S_3

no vents

there are no vents in the air handler.... there are supply and return ball valves with a bleeder vent before the return valve... if I close the return valve and opened the bleeder I get flow but it doesn't get hot... there are no gate valves on the whole loop...

icesailor

No heat:

If the supply and return are valved separately, and there is a boiler drain on the return, and the return valve is shut off, and you don't get hot water, you are either not drawing hot water from the boiler or you have a by-pass or another coil connected. It is by-passing the coil.

If however, you are only drawing cold water because the fill is located on the supply side of the boiler, you can't find where the water is going. If there is a separate valve and drain on the supply side, connect a hot water source to the supply side and purge through the return. Without hot water, you can not find out where the water is flowing.

An easy way that I would use is to take a hose and a washing machine hose and connect it to a cold water source and connect it to the bottom drain of the boiler. That way, as you replace the purged water, you will replace it with hot water.

I think that that circuit is connected to a bypass. Something changed. Something was closed. Follow the heat.

RJ_4

vents

Sorry I have mistated, I dont use auto vents on hydronic systems unless they have a shutoff valve before.  When piping up a hydronic coil I install shut off valves on the supply and return lines, a circut setter on the return, a control valve where used, and 2 petes plugs,    I pipe in tee with a ball or gate valve with a pipe x hose fitting at top of coil and drain valve at bottom of coil, this allows troubleshooting this coil for flow problems   I have always had the best results bleeding systems at the highest point in system, better to bleed with pumps off. I have used the purge technique to success when I did not have high points in system

icesailor

How you do it:

I wasn't questioning how you do it.

Because I always work alone, I have developed ways of doing things that don't require help.

I guess my question is, if you purge something like you and I pipe, why didn't you get hot water? If you have hot water going up the pipe, why isn't hot water coming back down the pipe? Sometimes, when purging, I get hot water back and I think I have it. I open it up and let the pump try to bring it around. But the temperature doesn't change. So I purge some more and all of a sudden, I get some air. The water gets hotter. The loop starts to work. I don't understand how someone can purge effectively with cold water.

My comments about float and automatic vents are my opinion and based on my personal experience. Their for what they are worth, nothing more.

Dave H_2

0013 Circ

So what was in before? You say the heat worked before the 0013 was put in. So where there any other changes to the system?



Dave H